Riddle me this batman...

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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guitarrista
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Re: Riddle me this batman...

Post by guitarrista » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:39 pm

guit-box wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:38 pm
There are several world class guitarists who recommend practicing either rasguedo strums and/or single note rasguedo scales or back and forth with individual fingers tremolo to develop a good finger stroke. This would imply that the simply letting the finger bounce back on its own may not be the best advice.
Are you replying to anyone in particular? Who up-thread is talking about finger bounce?
Konstantin
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

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Larry McDonald
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Re: Riddle me this batman...

Post by Larry McDonald » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:52 am

guitarrista wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:54 pm
Larry McDonald wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:46 pm
Hi,
Yes, a few years ago researchers discovered that those muscles can grow new muscle fiber bundles, even in old folks like me.
Larry, could you provide a reference to that paper? I tried a quick search but did not come across anything that seemed an obvious candidate for what you are saying, so clearly I don't have the right keywords..
This was my main source but it seem to be gone..
fitnessspotlight.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/muscle-genes-and-athletic-performance.pdf

-Lare
Dr. Lawrence A. McDonald, D.M.A., Art Kaplan Fellow
Author of The Conservatory Tutor for Guitar
2018 Michael Thames "Ancient Dragon" Cd/Ir
2008 Michael Thames Cd/Br
Royal Conservatory Advanced Guitar and Theory Instructor

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guitarrista
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Re: Riddle me this batman...

Post by guitarrista » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:38 am

Larry McDonald wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:52 am
guitarrista wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:54 pm
Larry McDonald wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:46 pm
Hi,
Yes, a few years ago researchers discovered that those muscles can grow new muscle fiber bundles, even in old folks like me.
Larry, could you provide a reference to that paper? I tried a quick search but did not come across anything that seemed an obvious candidate for what you are saying, so clearly I don't have the right keywords..
This was my main source but it seem to be gone..
fitnessspotlight.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/muscle-genes-and-athletic-performance.pdf

-Lare
It looks like the website itself went defunct sometime in the 2010s, but I found it using the Wayback Machine. The 2009 web article where this paper is linked-to is "Maximize Your Performance By Training For The Right Muscle Fiber Type".

From there, the link to the pdf, via the archive, goes to this muscle-genes-and-athletic-performance.pdf which I am sure you would be able to recognize if it is the same. The article itself is from 2000. I wonder if it is the box on page 54 that you are referring to. Let me know.

I'll also look around for any updates to the science in the meantime.
Konstantin
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

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guitarrista
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Re: Riddle me this batman...

Post by guitarrista » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:46 pm

I looked up more recent research and, if anything, the assessment is even more hopeful than in the 2000s. It seems that virtually any apparent decline in muscle function with age is a consequence of physical inactivity rather than an inevitability. Muscular and neural plasticity works in both directions.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

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Re: Riddle me this batman...

Post by guit-box » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:07 am

Crofty wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:54 pm
Larry McDonald wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:46 pm
I never hold the fingers in the palm.
-Lare
Likewise Larry.

I also find the advice from so many "experts" about different hand positions for free and rest stroke very unhelpful. Similarly the idea that in free stroke the fingers necessarily have to go beyond the adjacent lower string is a myth, in my opinion.

Yes, they can do, but if one is not physically touching** the adjacent lower string it is perfectly possible [and desirable] for the finger movement to be limited enough that it doesn't actually travel that far anyway. If it doesn't need to then why should it?

Paul

[**I really don't like the word "rest" in this context: it has absolutely the wrong image of what should be occurring.]
Yes, holding the finger in the palm implies the fingers need to go into the palm. What I see in the hands I've observed is the middle/tip joints follow through into the palm, but the large knuckle extends away from the palm when the note is plucked. So, a finger is both moving into the palm with some joints and moving away from the palm with other joints. I see some guitarists doing that classic play/relax technique where the finger is allowed to bounce back into position under it's own volition, but really I see more players sometimes holding the finger in the flexed/extended position described above and then they bring the finger back to the string as needed...it's not an immediate relax/return. Here's an example, but it's really common in world class players, and there are many examples on youtube. Look at how he holds all the fingers in at times (i finger is easiest to see) and brings them out as needed.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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Alexander Kalil
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Re: Riddle me this batman...

Post by Alexander Kalil » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:22 pm

guit-box wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:38 pm
There are several world class guitarists who recommend practicing either rasguedo .. or back and forth with individual fingers tremolo .. This would imply that the simply letting the finger bounce back on its own may not be the best advice.
The twitchy right hand playing style using intrinsic hand muscles mentioned upthread (ballisitc style) is often presented as inherently featuring passive return (letting the finger bounce back on its own). I think this is an unfortunate pedagogic trend that has led to quite a bit of confusion around the topic.

I suggest a conceptual separation between the pluck and the return. Ballistic style concerns only the pluck - specifically, the type of flexion that drives the finger across the string and creates the sound. The subsequent return of the finger back to playing position is a separate issue. That return can be passive or active - it implies nothing as to the type of flexion that preceded it. Thus, we can have a ballistic pluck with passive or with active return. Usually, at slow tempo the return can be passive while at high speed some active extension is needed to accelerate it.

With this in mind, the situation quoted above no longer appears as conflicting advice - you practice ballistic plucking with passive return (play/relax) at slow tempo to develop the intrinsic muscles and train the hand to operate with minimal effort, and you practice rasgeado or back and forth tremolo to exercise the extensors so that the finger can return fast enough at high speed.
Last edited by Alexander Kalil on Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alexander Kalil
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Re: Riddle me this batman...

Post by Alexander Kalil » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:23 pm

-

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Re: Riddle me this batman...

Post by guit-box » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:23 pm

Ballistic as I've seen it described is usually accompanied by the Uniform Direction of Movement hypothesis of Shearer where all joints either flexion together or extension together, but never a combination of extension/flexion. I've come to believe that this is wrong. What I see great players doing is a straightening of the finger to bring it to the string and press, and a contraction of the finger to pluck/release the string.
This movement is more circular and requires joints to seamlessly move in opposite directions. There may be moments when both joints are in flexion or both joints are in extension, but those moments are only when the joint is changing directions.

Look at the side view of Tennant's index finger. The finger straightens and then contracts and the large knuckle joint (MCP) extends away from the string at the moment the string is sounded. Clearly none of the fingers bounce back immediately, he brings the finger back when it's needed.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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