Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:45 pm

The first time I came across Tárrega's Study in E Minor, many years ago, it was via a tablature prepared by Kevin Manges back in May-99 (http://braumeister.tripod.com/Music/Tarrega_Estudio.txt). It had two parts, A and B, and was to be played as AA-BB. This tablature, I imagine, was a transcription from a standard music sheet he had with this composition. However, I couldn't find it anywhere.

Later on, I realized that there was another version, still with two parts, A and B, also played as AA-BB, in which part A was slightly different from the one above. This version is the one one can find under Tárrega in the database of our Froum (http://www.delcamp.net/pdf/francisco_ta ... _minor.pdf).

Now, assuming Francisco Tárrega didn't write two versions of the same Study (or did he?), which one is the correct one, the original? To add to my "confusion", I must add that Melchior Rodriguez, the editor of the SONETO (Madrid) publication Tárrega, Obras Completas para Guitarra - Nueva Edicion Basada in sus Manuscritos y Ediciones Originales (which can be translated as "Tárrega, Complete Guitar Works" - a New Edition based on Manuscripts and Original Editions), in its Volumes I and II, dedicated to Tárrega's Studies, this Study in E Minor is not present :? .

Any comments?
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

hpaulj
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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by hpaulj » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:21 pm

I think this has been discussed before.

The big book by Jerry Willard, The Library of Guitar Classics, has 2 versions. They are basically the same except for the 3rd measure (and 7 and 15). The first uses F#, D#, A, B (II bar), the 2nd replaces the D# with an easier open B. Basically the same 2 versions that you cite.

May be the different versions come to us via different students.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:39 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:Any comments?
Many of Tárrega's works have come down to us through his students - some are mistakenly attributed to him such as the "Fantasia on la Traviata" which was in fact composed by Arcas - there are several other instances.

This particular "study" was transmitted through the Brazilian guitarist Oswaldo Soares who nevertheless does not actually attribute it to Tárrega himself. Soares was a student of Josefina Robledo and she a student of Tárrega - thus, even if there is a supposed connection, we receive it at third hand.

The work appears in Soares' book in which he attempts to establish a methodology based on Tárrega's technique - this of course comes to him second hand through the aforementioned Ms. Robledo. Here Soares usually mentions the author of each piece or étude by name - e.g. Sor, Carulli and indeed Tárrega - the study in question has no such designation suggesting to me that it may actually have been written by Soares. I have tried for several years to find a source which stems directly from Tárrega ... without success.

I first came across the piece in a collection of studies edited by Isaias Savio together with the "Study in C" (also found in Soares' book and similarly not attributed to any author). Savio is of course also Brazilian - he makes no mention of why he thinks the studies are by Tárrega (why should he?) but it seems likely that he gleaned both from the work of Soares.

For myself - I see and hear nothing which makes me sure that either of these two studies (Em and C) are indeed by Tárrega. As far as I have been able to find out there are no manuscript versions of either of them.

To answer your question - the version in the tablature file is not original having been simplified to avoid the second position barré.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:59 am

hpaulj wrote:I think this has been discussed before.

The big book by Jerry Willard, The Library of Guitar Classics, has 2 versions. They are basically the same except for the 3rd measure (and 7 and 15). The first uses F#, D#, A, B (II bar), the 2nd replaces the D# with an easier open B. Basically the same 2 versions that you cite.

May be the different versions come to us via different students.
Many thanks, hpaulj, for your clarifications. Indeed, following your hint, I searched the Forum and found threads discussing this particular Study in E Minor, as well as the Study in C Major, both attributed to Tárrega, but without any clear evidence of its authorship. And from Mark Clifton-Gautier's comments to this Topic, above, the tablature version is a simplification of the other version - written by the Brzilian Oswaldo Soares - so as to avoid the barré (and I've seen this explanation in the other threads I've mentioned).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:11 pm

Further to my previous post - having just thoroughly re-read Soares introductory material I am pretty certain that the two studies, or exercises - in Em and C - were composed by him and not Tárrega.

Soares speaks at length on the disservice done to Napoleon Coste, some of who's works were wrongly attributed to Sor for many years simply because of their association with Sor's "methode" (which Coste expanded). His dissatisfaction with this situation is so clear and firmly expressed that it is very difficult to imagine that he (Soares) would use any of Tárrega's works without clearly stating that to be the case - in fact even where he does use a previously unknown exercise he designates it thus, "Inedité".

For my part from now on I will be using Soare's name when discussing or using these two little arpeggio studies - unless someone can show definitively that they are in fact Tárrega's work.

I would be pleased to be proved wrong so ... any takers?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:00 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Jorge Oliveira wrote:Any comments?
Many of Tárrega's works have come down to us through his students - some are mistakenly attributed to him such as the "Fantasia on la Traviata" which was in fact composed by Arcas - there are several other instances.

This particular "study" was transmitted through the Brazilian guitarist Oswaldo Soares who nevertheless does not actually attribute it to Tárrega himself. Soares was a student of Josefina Robledo and she a student of Tárrega - thus, even if there is a supposed connection, we receive it at third hand.

The work appears in Soares' book in which he attempts to establish a methodology based on Tárrega's technique - ....
.
.
.

For myself - I see and hear nothing which makes me sure that either of these two studies (Em and C) are indeed by Tárrega. As far as I have been able to find out there are no manuscript versions of either of them.

To answer your question - the version in the tablature file is not original having been simplified to avoid the second position barré.
Thanks very much, Mark, for your thoroughly explanations. Indeed, looked into the A Escola de Tárrega - Método Completo de Violão (The Tárrega School - Complete Method for Guitar), written by Oswaldo Soares and published in Rio de Janeiro in September 1962, and the two Studies are there with no mention of the author:
  1. The Study in C Major (Mr. Soares designate it by Lição em Dó Maior) is the nº 8 in page 12. Curiously, it is slightly different from the Study 1 version in "Francisco Tárrega - 12 Studies for Guitar", published by Eythor Thorlaksson from The Guitar School - Iceland.
  2. The Study in E Minor is the Exercise nº 17 in page 17.
As there is no mention of the author nor any observation saying that they were adaptations of something written by Tárrega, possibly conveyed to him by his teacher Ms. Josefina Robledo, it is only reasonable to assign to Mr. Oswaldo Soares the authorship of these two studies. In fact, none of them appears in the Leckie Manuscript or in the SONETO publication I mentioned in my first post under this Topic (which is to say that Mr. Melchior Rodriguez himself couldn't also find an irrevocable proof connecting these two studies to Francisco Tárrega).

Finally, thanks as well for clarifying the tablature question.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:04 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
For my part from now on I will be using Soare's name when discussing or using these two little arpeggio studies - unless someone can show definitively that they are in fact Tárrega's work.
Me too... :D
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

RobMacKillop
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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:26 pm

Me too. :-)

Luis_Br
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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Luis_Br » Mon May 06, 2019 8:41 pm

In my edition of Soares method, the Etude in E minor and in C appear with Tarrega as author.
But I agree it doesn't mean they were actually written by Tarrega...
I am not sure about this either. I will see what the old guys here tell me about this. I know a guy who studied with a Soares student...

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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Tue May 07, 2019 7:58 am

Luis_Br wrote:In my edition of Soares method, the Etude in E minor and in C appear with Tarrega as author.
That's interesting Luis - what edition is that? Perhaps we have to re-think?

Just checked mine - of the the series of 20 exercises only the ones below have author's names attached. Numbers 08 and 17 are the two relevant ones:

04 ... Oswaldo (does he mean himself?)
05 ... Aguado
08 ... Lição en dó maior - unattributed.
11a ... Tárrega
Before 12 is inserted a heading, Série de lições progressivas para leitura (Progressive reading lessons)
12 ... Sor
14 ... Sor
15 ... Sor
17 ... Exercício - unattributed.
20 ... Carulli

Is authorship added to any others of the set Luis?

Luis_Br
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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Luis_Br » Wed May 08, 2019 11:44 am

My version is the 4th edition. It seems an earlier edition than the one I've found over the internet. I couldn't find any year indication, but the prologue is different. It begins:
"Ao apresentar a segunda edição..." (presenting the second edition).
Then he talks about a reformulation of the exercises and so on.
The 1962 edition I've found on the internet begins with:
"Ao apresentar mais uma edição..." (presenting one more edition)
So it seems the 1962 is more than the second edition and my one, which is the 4th, is a kind of reprint of the 2nd, maybe...

In my 4th edition, lesson number 8 is the same, "Licao em do maior" and the author is written as Tarrega.
This whole page is the same, except for the indication of Tarrega and the page numbering. My edition it is page 16, the other one it is page 12.
The unattributed exercise 17, in E minor, from the other edition, is exercise 13 in my edition and Tarrega is there, as the author.
Below this E minor etude, in the 1962 edition it sais:
"Estes pequenos estudos tem o objetivo(...)" (This small studies has the objective)
In 4th edition I have, where this same exercise is number 13, it sais:
"Estes pequenos estudos de Tarrega, (...)" (This small sutdies by Tarrega,). So in my edition he clearly attributes it to Tarrega.

In 4th edition, the last lesson is number 64. There is a text below, saying this is the last lesson from "Tarrega's technique". It sais about the scales with barres that Robledo did all of them, with and without basses, in less than 2 minutes...
Then there are the ending pieces. It is not written second part, it ends with Bach Courante.
The 1962 ed, the last lesson is number 83, the text at the end is missing. Before the pieces it is marked as "2a Parte" (2nd part). It ends with a Bach Gavotte after the Bach Courante. There are other more pieces than my edition.

Later on I will try to post some pictures.

Edited:
Just found a thesis about the Tarrega school in Brazil:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/62471431.pdf
It comments several methods influenced by Tarrega, such as Prat, Pascual Roch, Fortea and Pujol's.
It also has extensive information and newspaper articles from Robledo activities in Brazil (reviews and programs from some of her concerts).
It has info on Oswaldo Soares as an important Robledo student when she lived in Sao Paulo. It says first edition from Soares method is from 1929. He was also representant and reseller in Brazil of Simplicio guitars. Interesting stuff. In portuguese...

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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Wed May 08, 2019 2:36 pm

Luis_Br wrote:My version is the 4th edition ...
Thanks for all this Luis.
Luis_Br wrote:My version is the 4th edition ...It seems an earlier edition than the one I've found over the internet.
Where on the internet did you find Soares method? Can we know or is it a "dodgy" site?

My copy is old and battered - missing the outer covers but I have always thought that it to be the first. There is no mention of "another edition" and unfortunately no date visible.

Your logic regarding sequencing is sound - whatever - it seems that we must accept the attributions added to your later edition if the trouble has been taken to name Tárrega - with no known manuscript it's the best information that we have.

Thanks also for the link - I'll be translating that thesis during half-term ... as if I didn't have enough to occupy me.

So - back to calling it Tárrrega's work - until someone tells us differently ...

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Re: Which is the correct version of Tárrega's famous Study in E Minor?

Post by Luis_Br » Wed May 08, 2019 6:22 pm

You easily find the method through a google search. It seems your version is the newest one, but it is strange that they removed the name.

Other old methods here also have these pieces as "by Tarrega". I don't know if they copied from Soares first edition or if there is some other source.
For example, I have an old method by Othon Gomes da Rocha Filho, also from the 60s and from the same Vitale editors, included those pieces with Tarrega as author.

There is another method from Tarrega School written by "Sodre", which is actually Soares too. You can still buy this one, for example in these sites:
https://www.lojadelvecchio.com.br/escol ... a-volume-1
https://www.freenote.com.br/produto.asp ... 4403SQ03RH
https://www.musimed.com.br/escola-do-vi ... ga-p53024/
I think I have those too, I don't remmember if they have those studies. To verify it, I need to open an old chest and dig in...

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