Looking for music with Right hand fingering

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scottdetroit
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Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by scottdetroit » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:34 am

Hi,

My teacher tells me I should write down my RH fingering before I start playing a piece. This seemed simple until I started doing it.

Can anyone point me to good examples of music with all or most of the RH fingering written? I'm looking for good examples to analyze and emulate as I stumble between "i " and "m" and "a" :)

Thanks

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Bernhard Heimann
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by Bernhard Heimann » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:29 pm

You might try the Sagreras lecciones, to be found here:

https://www.guitarraclasicadelcamp.com/ ... reras.html

Depending on your playing level, you can start with Segundas Lecciones or later, a lot of beautiful Argentinian 19th century music.

Bernhard

brooks
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by brooks » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:12 pm

scottdetroit wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:34 am
Hi,

My teacher tells me I should write down my RH fingering before I start playing a piece. This seemed simple until I started doing it.

Can anyone point me to good examples of music with all or most of the RH fingering written? I'm looking for good examples to analyze and emulate as I stumble between "i " and "m" and "a" :)

Thanks
Some of Bream's editions have pretty comprehensive RH fingerings, though I sometimes find his LH fingerings a bit idiosyncratic. You might find some of the Purcell in "The Baroque Era" edition of the Julian Bream Guitar Library (Faber) useful as it's fairly straightforward and not that challenging. It's inconsistent though: e.g., Purcell's hornpipe is completely fingered for RH, while the Bach 996 Bourree has RH indications for only two bars.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:26 pm

There are rules for right-hand fingering. The rules are not easy, and you will not learn them by simply copying right-hand fingering from existing editions. Much published music has incorrect right-hand fingering, or at least fingering that is not consistent with modern technique.I am not sure how to acquire the rules. I have read everything modern that I could get my hands on, and now I have a good idea of the options for right-hand fingering. But it is far too much material to post. I do not know of a single source that gives you all the rules you need. I think the following information is necessary:
  • There are right-hand positions. The standard position is 3th position, that is, i finger on string 3, m finger on string 2 and a finger on string 1. In 4th position, i finger is on string 4; in second position, i finger is on string 2 and m finger is on string 1, etc.
  • When possible, the right hand should be supported by placing p on string 6, 5, or 4; or by placing a on string 1. I have tried using the a finger for support, and it is not so easy.
  • Shifting right-hand positions introduces risk and the possibility of errors. Of course, shifting cannot always be avoided.
  • Avoid playing the same finger twice in a row; that is, alternate the fingers. Where repetition is necessary, the p and i fingers are faster and more independent that the others, therefore more suitable for repeating.
  • Finger string crossing (moving from one string to another) first, and work out all other fingerings after you have found convenient right-hand position and fingering for the string crossing.
  • The a finger is weaker and less agile, and no amount of practice will make it as fast or as strong as the other fingers. However, you should work on improving it. Sometimes it is easier to minimize the use of the a finger.
There are more rules (such which finger to use when shifting from apoyando to tirando strokes or the reverse), but this should cover much of the music that you play as a beginner. I hope this helps.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

scottdetroit
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by scottdetroit » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:27 pm

thanks, Everyone

I was mostly looking for examples of good practice. I didn't suppose I could intuit an infallible set of rules. Right-hand fingering seems to be an area where there is not one right answer (though there may be a lot of bad answers)

My teacher also recommended Segraras.
Amazon doesn't have the Bream Baroque Era, but it is available on scribed is you sign up for for a trial membership
(https://www.scribd.com/doc/298973688/Ju ... aroque-Era)

Yisrael your comments seem very insightful and succinct. I definitely want to work on "a" - My teacher wants me to focus on increasing independence between "a" and "m" I like your suggestion about stating with the string crossings and going from there.

The piece I'm working on Canarios, by Gasper Sanz has many 3 note runs with a slur between the first 2 notes. Do you think its good practice to play them with this same figure on the first and 3rd note? m-m vs, say i-m

pmiklitz
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by pmiklitz » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:08 am

Hi scottdetroit,

The Royal Conservatory of Music Repertoire and Etudes Series "Bridges" has a lot of RH fingering. The lower grade books try to avoid any "awkward" string crossing fingering by strictly adhering to the rule that the righmost finger of the RH should pluck the higher string when crossing strings. I personally find that approach a bit too rigid, but it certainly helps to develop the ring finger ("a"), as it's used much more frequently.

With more experience, you'll most likely find that "awkward" string crossings pose less of a problem and sticking to a strict alternation of two RH fingers (usually i-m or m-i) in fast scale passages allows for more fluent play than suddenly adding the a finger for a couple of notes.

I'd also say that you have to decide on a LH fingering first, as that will determine where awkward string crossings are, which you can than address by a proper RH fingering.

Best regards,

Peter
Dringt durch des Aberglaubens Nacht, die Euch zu finstern Köpfen macht. Christian Fürchtegott Gellert (1715 - 1769)

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:45 pm

scottdetroit wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:27 pm
The piece I'm working on Canarios, by Gasper Sanz has many 3 note runs with a slur between the first 2 notes. Do you think its good practice to play them with this same figure on the first and 3rd note? m-m vs, say i-m
No. I do not have time to learn Canarios now, but just sight-reading through the Delcamp version, my impression is that alternating i and m is required in those three-note groups, also in the ones with slurs.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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dng
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by dng » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:29 pm

@ scottdetroit

not knowing what's your level... I'd suggest Mauro Giuliani Op.48 no.5

on YT -> Study no. 5, Op. 48 by Mauro Giuliani - Strings By Mail Lessonette | Gohar Vardanyan

viewtopic.php?t=58816
"Nothing is more beautiful than a guitar, save perhaps two.”
-Frederic Chopin

Desperado
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by Desperado » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:55 pm

I would try not to over analyse, someone mentioned a bream edition, great player/musician, but I wouldn't use his fingerings, right or left!
Good alternation/technique can be learnt through scales and arpeggios. Choose a simple scale and practise with every permutation of two and three fingers this will help balance the right hand and will help identify the patterns that are weakest.
When fingering a piece I try to avoid negative crossing eg ascending string cross i to m is easier than m to I, sometimes when descending I may drag a finger if it's easier. But this is a conscious drag and in my muscle memory. Keep things simple-Simplicity is effcientcy.

brooks
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by brooks » Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:52 pm

Desperado wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:55 pm
I would try not to over analyse, someone mentioned a bream edition, great player/musician, but I wouldn't use his fingerings, right or left!
If you recall, the OP asked for "good examples of music with all or most of the RH fingering written" - not what editions a particular player would or wouldn't use - which is what I offered since Bream is one of the few who often provides extensive RH fingering, an indication that he considered it to be of equal importance. His LH fingering is very idiosyncratic, as I pointed out, but his RH fingerings seem less frequently so and often adhere to standard principles. For simple pieces like Purcell's hornpipe for example, Bream's fingering is very straightforward, and might be useful for such an exercise. But even in the more virtuosic pieces where you might never try to stick to his LH fingerings, you can still usually see well thought-out RH fingering based on general principles.

scott martin
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by scott martin » Wed May 01, 2019 3:27 pm

scottdetroit wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:34 am
Hi,

My teacher tells me I should write down my RH fingering before I start playing a piece. This seemed simple until I started doing it.

Can anyone point me to good examples of music with all or most of the RH fingering written? I'm looking for good examples to analyze and emulate as I stumble between "i " and "m" and "a" :)

Thanks
Hi Scottdetroit,

Most sheet music does not indicate the Right hand pattern. That is why a general set of guidelines has been created.

It is true right hand finger patterns are important. There is a saying "memorize the right hand finger pattern then un-memorize the pattern"

It is important to listen for the sound that each of the right hand fingers and thumb are producing. Example - you may like the sound of the T playing the G string and not the the recommended i in certain measures.

There are times when the hand has been injured and you cannot play a pattern you practiced therefore you will be forced to use other fingerings.

Just some ideas for food for thought.

Never let go your guitar or your pen,
Scott

paskin
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by paskin » Wed May 01, 2019 4:27 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:26 pm

When possible, the right hand should be supported by placing p on string 6, 5, or 4; or by placing a on string 1. I have tried using the a finger for support, and it is not so easy.
These rules are very interesting, thanks for sharing. Regarding this one about support, it seems like there's a trade-off between the security of having extra support and the lost resonances on the supporting string. So I tend not to use support except in cases where I need extra security.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Wed May 01, 2019 6:41 pm

paskin wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 4:27 pm
These rules are very interesting, thanks for sharing. Regarding this one about support, it seems like there's a trade-off between the security of having extra support and the lost resonances on the supporting string. So I tend not to use support except in cases where I need extra security.
Interesting remark. I am of the opposite point of view. I do not want my bass strings resonating, and prefer to have them stopped. I like that clean tone that comes from eliminating vibrations from unplayed strings. It suits my playing style better. I play almost exclusively Sor at the moment, and I am aiming for a clear, clean tone. I can certainly imagine other approaches; and other goals in different genres.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

Luis_Br
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Re: Looking for music with Right hand fingering

Post by Luis_Br » Wed May 01, 2019 8:43 pm

Carlevaro Masterclass books have a several RH fingering discussions and recommendations, but it doesn't include all RH fingerings.

I play some Bach cello suites based on transcriptions by Marcos Diaz (ed Opera Tres) which are great transcriptions and RH is carefully fingered. He is a great player:

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