Serious Copyright Question

Respect Copyrights : Any messages offering illegal material or links to sites that provide unauthorized, copyrighted material will be removed by the moderators.
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Respect Copyrights : Any messages offering illegal material or links to sites that provide unauthorized, copyrighted material will be removed by the moderators.

Serious Copyright Question

Post by olenaval » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:39 am

Dear Cardamomo and other moderators,

First off, thank you for running this forum. It is one of the best things about the internet. I posted a topic searching for Ave Maria solo, and was surprised to find it "locked". My first reaction is to apologize because this connotes some kind of violation. Of course, I never intended this and if I did, I am sorry.

I asked, however, a lawyer regarding copyrights precisely because I do not want to violate anybody's. I am also in a business that deals with my intellectual property. This was his reply: Copyrights last all throughout the lifetime of the author and carries over 50 years after his death. SL offered to send me the PDF version of Tarrega's transcription. Since Tarrega passed away in 1909, the copyright on this work expired in 1959 and is not renewable.

Where then, was the violation? I only ask this because I do not want to offend anybody in the future. The tenor of this post is formal because it is serious question but please believe me that I am not, in any way, angry. Thanks for your response, guys.



Post by Azalais » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:59 am

The Delcamp site is hosted in France, which has different copyright laws. (notably it's 75 years instead of 50 years after the composer's death). The other issue is that subsequent PUBLISHERS of public domain works have copyrights on their "publishing" efforts... In other words, if you wrote a new Bach book, you could protect the "book" even though the music itself is fair game. If you wrote a new arrangement (different fingering or a different order of playing the movements, etc., you could also protect your new "arrangement".) There are also exceptions like Barrios, who died without heirs, so his work went straight into the public domain.

I didn't recall seeing your original post, or the attachment in question... but if you were asking for (or someone offered) a free copy of something from a protected book or an arrangement that is still protected, it would have been removed.

I appreciate the question... and if you still think that it was locked in error, send us a note with the specifics, and I'll ask the owner about it.


Thanks, Azalais

Post by olenaval » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:13 am

I asked: where I could get hold of any solo arrangement of Ave Maria from either Gounod or Schubert and that I did not mind buying over the net but I wanted to get recommendations or see at least part of it. You know what I mean? SL offered to send me his copy. No book was ever mentioned.

Author is still Tarrega, isn't it? It's still past 75 years after his death, regardless of publishing. Ergo, from the book which contains public information, and that piece of public information should not be covered, right? Since the information is a matter of "public record". I am really confused. Maybe we should get some definitive terms for "copyright" in the rules. Whatever the site moderators define as such, I will agree to anyway.

I am new to the site and definitely do not want to be blacklisted or banned or even seen as violating the rules, as I am enjoying the forum. I just wanted the moderators to know that there wasn't, isn't and ever will be the intention to violate. If I did, unknowingly, please accept my sincerest apologies.

Thank you for your reply, Azalais!

PS The issue is really an offshoot of my post but I am still searching for a resource or recommendation for the pieces. I would like to word it properly before I post again in the same forum.


Post by Azalais » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:34 am

I think that it was not your "request", which was not asking for anyone to violate a copyright, but rather the "offer" that may have violated it.

Maybe next time if you make it clear that you want to buy a book, and you ask for a book title and ISBN you would get the answer you need. Lots of people want to help, but they may cause problems being "too helpful" :wink:

I still may need to clarify the "book" issue... If someone goes to the trouble of researching, transcribing, type setting, printing, advertising and distributing a printed book, they do it expecting for people to purchase the book... even if it is of a dusty old public domain piece that they found in a library.... The copyright covers the PUBLISHERS rights to sell his printed book for a small profit, not the composer's rights. You could go to a library yourself and make your own copy of the original work, but if you want the convenience of a clean print... it is that convenience effort that is copyrighted.

Here is a more detailed explanation in the rules :



Post by olenaval » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:51 am

Okay, clear to me now. Thanks a million, for taking the time.


Post by Azalais » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:40 am

No problem! I appreciate the question... Lots of people read these posts... so if it helps clarify it for someone else in the future, so much the better...

BTW, I like your avatar.


Post by cardamomo » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:06 am

Hello Olenaval,
I'm replying too, after Azalais' replies, just to supply the exact details of the problem in the locked topic: user SL, even if completely, and only, willing to help you, wrote in response to your request:
SL wrote:I have the Tarrega transcription of the Bach/Gounod version. VERY nice in my opinion. I can make a PDF scan and send it to you if you send me your e-mail address.
The problem, as I stated in the last post of that locked topic, is that a PDF scan of a copyrighted book would infringe copyright laws. That's all, and it's not your fault at all (not even of SL, because he was just willing to help you, and he didn't realize the problem existed, I think).

We are making these efforts, (claryfing things about copyrights, and trying to protect copyrighted works -both prints and music-) both to keep this site and these forums "clean", and expecially to offer a proper, reliable, correct environment for the classical guitarists community. After all, most of the professional guitarists rely on copyright, to protect their own work.

Have a nice day and thank you for your questions!


Post by SL » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:07 pm

Sorry that my post caused such a problem here. I won't make such offers again, although I would say that there probably isn't a person on this site who hasn't one time or another either photocopied a piece of music and given it to someone else or went to a library and photocopied something for themselves instead of going out to buy the whole book. Technically wouldn't that be the same thing, since we are not buying the work and thus shortchanging the artist of a few extra pennies? I guess if I read the magazine at my dentists office waiting room I am in violation of something also, since I didn't go out and buy it myself?? How many music teachers have given their students a photocopy of music that might have been copyrighted? Probably many!

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Post by pogmoor » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:37 pm

Yes, of course, it goes on all the time. I guess the issue here is this is a public forum and can't be seen to be condonig breach of copyright.


Post by hav » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:45 pm

the issue is that the forums could be shut down - if individuals want to share (as friends do) just do it off the forum - not a biggy.


Post by cardamomo » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:13 pm

SL wrote:How many music teachers have given their students a photocopy of music that might have been copyrighted? Probably many!
Oh yes, a lot of them! The problem here is that this site and these forums must be kept legal, otherwise some problems for the owner (and the site and forums themselves) could arise.

Anyway, thank you SL for helping users here. I already told, and repeat here, that I'm sure that you didn't mean to cause any problems. And definitely, you didn't.



Thanks, guys

Post by olenaval » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:13 am

I, along with other users, appreciate all the moderators' efforts and laud them. Thank you.

SL, thank you also for the offer. It was really really nice of you. It will never go unappreciated either!

More power to you guys and gals and the forum!


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