Why not stand with the guitar?

Ergonomics and Posture for Classical Guitarists, Aches and Pains, Injuries, etc...
Luis_Br
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Why not stand with the guitar?

Post by Luis_Br » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:00 pm


AndreiKrylov

Re: Why not stand with the guitar?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:01 am

Thanks Luis!
for new info regarding this topic.
I have 2 other studies to one yours :)
quote from another study (cross referenced in study quoted in these papers):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24152707
CONCLUSIONS:
The results suggest that standing may not be a hazardous form of behavior. Given that mortality rates declined at higher levels of standing, standing may be a healthier alternative to excessive periods of sitting.

I never insisted that one should stand all the time , but always were talking about standing/moving all the time.

I play standing for about 25 years and it totally worked for me.
I was able to do giant amount of work in this period - and anyone could see/hear it on WWW.
sitting in "classical position" does not work for me...
so- Why not stand with the guitar?

and here is my first post from this theme:
t I think to stand with guitar on a strap is a best solution! I can play longer hours and I'm be able to be more concentrated and more productive. I don't understand - why should we seat? Why not to stand with guitar? Even when you are young -it is more convenient but when you older it is uncomarable. I feel more relax and concentrate on my music - I don't think about pain. Sitting is not ergonomical position at all! Ask medical professionals... Standing is a solution for back and for concentration too.
I don't insist that this is the only possible position.

again - quote from another study (cross referenced in study quoted in these papers):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24152707
CONCLUSIONS:
The results suggest that standing may not be a hazardous form of behavior. Given that mortality rates declined at higher levels of standing, standing may be a healthier alternative to excessive periods of sitting.

one more study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25456805
CONCLUSION:
This study showed a dose-response association between standing time and all-cause mortality in Australian adults aged 45 years and older. Increasing standing may hold promise for alleviating the health risks of prolonged sitting.

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robin loops
Posts: 3154
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:57 am
Location: California

Re: Why not stand with the guitar?

Post by robin loops » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:27 pm

Contradicting studies is a common issue. Thing to do is look at who funded them and when they were done. You can tell a lot about the reliability of information based on the motives of the study. For example if a shoe company funded the study promoting standing I would not trust the findings. On the other hand, if the study promoting sitting was funded by a chair company, I would not trust it either. And while many studies are non biased and scientific, many are not, so it's important to do research on the researchers.

Also when a study was done plays a role. It's quite common that someone does some research and we get all excited about the findings and jump on that bandwagon. Then someone does more research and adds new information and in sometimes we find that both studies have merits.

In the case of standing versus sitting I believe it is the later. One study shows standing for prolonged periods is bad and the other that sitting for prolonged periods is. Both are correct, which is why students that practice while standing need to take frequent breaks and sit down, while students that use a sitting position need to take frequent breaks and sit down. This is precisely the approach companies are taking to the conundrum. They have desks that can raise and lower so you can alternate between sitting/standing.

Whether sitting, standing, or laying down you are putting strain on your body. That's a result of gravity and can't be avoided unless someone comes up with a way to practice in zero gravity (a whole other host of problems related to that though ;) ). So it really comes down to personal preference and what works best for the player as long as they spend time away from sitting/standing and do other activities.

Another thing to factor in is what is best for one's hand health. In my case sitting avoids certain positions that cause me strain in my fretting hand so the obvious choice is to sit while playing and stand (or walk around) while taking breaks. What works well for me as a multi style guitar player, is to alternate between working on classical and the electric, which I play while standing.

One possible standing position that I have not seen explored would be to use Paul Galbraith's method (similar to cello posture) with a longer stand (pole thing) so that it could be done standing (as in, more like an contra bass). If one had a short and a long pole (support), they could alternate between standing and sitting while using the same basic posture and approach to holding the guitar... Could be interesting for a player that wants to alternate (standing/sitting) while playing.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

AndreiKrylov

Re: Why not stand with the guitar?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:16 am

robin loops wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:27 pm
Contradicting studies is a common issue. Thing to do is look at who funded them and when they were done. You can tell a lot about the reliability of information based on the motives of the study. For example if a shoe company funded the study promoting standing I would not trust the findings. On the other hand, if the study promoting sitting was funded by a chair company, I would not trust it either. And while many studies are non biased and scientific, many are not, so it's important to do research on the researchers.

Also when a study was done plays a role. It's quite common that someone does some research and we get all excited about the findings and jump on that bandwagon. Then someone does more research and adds new information and in sometimes we find that both studies have merits.

In the case of standing versus sitting I believe it is the later. One study shows standing for prolonged periods is bad and the other that sitting for prolonged periods is. Both are correct, which is why students that practice while standing need to take frequent breaks and sit down, while students that use a sitting position need to take frequent breaks and sit down. This is precisely the approach companies are taking to the conundrum. They have desks that can raise and lower so you can alternate between sitting/standing.

Whether sitting, standing, or laying down you are putting strain on your body. That's a result of gravity and can't be avoided unless someone comes up with a way to practice in zero gravity (a whole other host of problems related to that though ;) ). So it really comes down to personal preference and what works best for the player as long as they spend time away from sitting/standing and do other activities.

Another thing to factor in is what is best for one's hand health. In my case sitting avoids certain positions that cause me strain in my fretting hand so the obvious choice is to sit while playing and stand (or walk around) while taking breaks. What works well for me as a multi style guitar player, is to alternate between working on classical and the electric, which I play while standing.

One possible standing position that I have not seen explored would be to use Paul Galbraith's method (similar to cello posture) with a longer stand (pole thing) so that it could be done standing (as in, more like an contra bass). If one had a short and a long pole (support), they could alternate between standing and sitting while using the same basic posture and approach to holding the guitar... Could be interesting for a player that wants to alternate (standing/sitting) while playing.
Thanks for your input, Robin!
It is good that you found what works for you!
Alternating sounds great!

Luis_Br
Posts: 2233
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Why not stand with the guitar?

Post by Luis_Br » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:59 pm

I agree alternating would be probably the best solution.
I play Galbraith posture (but without pin) and I've tried adapting it to standing position. I use a table with pillows to rest the guitar and some suction cups with accessories to stabilize it. Problem with the long pin would be stabilizing the guitar. In sitting position we use legs to stabilize. I've been trying the suction cups tied to body, but I am not satisfied with this. Nonetheless it is useful to break up wrong body patterns.

RaajShinde
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:59 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Re: Why not stand with the guitar?

Post by RaajShinde » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:13 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:01 am
Thanks Luis!
for new info regarding this topic.
I have 2 other studies to one yours :)
quote from another study (cross referenced in study quoted in these papers):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24152707
CONCLUSIONS:
The results suggest that standing may not be a hazardous form of behavior. Given that mortality rates declined at higher levels of standing, standing may be a healthier alternative to excessive periods of sitting.

I never insisted that one should stand all the time , but always were talking about standing/moving all the time.

I play standing for about 25 years and it totally worked for me.
I was able to do giant amount of work in this period - and anyone could see/hear it on WWW.
sitting in "classical position" does not work for me...
so- Why not stand with the guitar?

and here is my first post from this theme:
t I think to stand with guitar on a strap is a best solution! I can play longer hours and I'm be able to be more concentrated and more productive. I don't understand - why should we seat? Why not to stand with guitar? Even when you are young -it is more convenient but when you older it is uncomarable. I feel more relax and concentrate on my music - I don't think about pain. Sitting is not ergonomical position at all! Ask medical professionals... Standing is a solution for back and for concentration too.
I don't insist that this is the only possible position.

again - quote from another study (cross referenced in study quoted in these papers):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24152707
CONCLUSIONS:
The results suggest that standing may not be a hazardous form of behavior. Given that mortality rates declined at higher levels of standing, standing may be a healthier alternative to excessive periods of sitting.

one more study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25456805
CONCLUSION:
This study showed a dose-response association between standing time and all-cause mortality in Australian adults aged 45 years and older. Increasing standing may hold promise for alleviating the health risks of prolonged sitting.
Andrei,

Thank you for your posts sharing your thoughts on playing CG standing. I was able to get a simple solution to work reliably with my CG - a $12 "standard" guitar strap from Amazon, a couple of suction cups from the local Ace Hardware and some clingy film that goes on the guitar just under the suction cups to prevent damage. It's secure, comfortable, completely reversible and allows me to "play" standing up. ["Play" because I can't play anything worth a damn at the moment, but oh well...]

Cheers!
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.

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