Bach, J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

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kloeten
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Bach, J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by kloeten » Tue May 28, 2013 11:29 am

Dear Delcamp friends,

I need your help again...
BWV 998_Kloeten_WIP.mp3
This is work in progress. I believe I arrived at 90% of 'something' but do not know where to find the remaining 10%.
I know I should hit all notes properly, and I will work on getting that right, but that is not the type of feedback I am looking for.
I am looking for your feedback on the overall feel of the piece, perhaps also on specific sections, how I can fundamentally improve the quality of this rendition.
Thanks for your help,

Cheers Rutger
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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Bach J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Tue May 28, 2013 2:44 pm

I am not qualified to judge your guitar playing, as you are far ahead of me. I would like to make a comment, though. I am thoroughly convinced by Clive Tittmus'article (available on the internet) that BWV 998 and the other so-called Bach Lute Suites were written for the lute-harpsichord (Lautewerke in German). They are therefore keyboard pieces, and I think they should be played as such. I like the phrasing and general approach of Robert Hill's performance of BWV 998 on a modern lute-harpsichord (available on YouTube). Hill's approach sounds to me a much more Bach-like. I like both his phrasing and general tone and style. The more guitaristic, romantic style with vibrato and drama doesn't work for me. I like the stricter approach, letting the natural phrasing do the work of creating the tension and release. I know I am not being very clear, that is because I don't have enough background to be very technical in my description. Anyway, my suggestion is listen to Hill, and see what you think of the approach. Even on a lute, a very guitaristic approach would not be possible.
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Erik Zurcher
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Re: Bach J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by Erik Zurcher » Tue May 28, 2013 9:57 pm

Very nice, Rutger! It sounds fine to me already. Allow yourself to mature and I am sure that you will reach that extra 10%. It only takes time.
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Re: Bach J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by Kenbobpdx » Wed May 29, 2013 1:49 am

I think you are well on your way with this piece. One concern I have is that you pause much too long at the end several phrases. I know there a several places where there is almost an implied fermata but the score actually does not have any. I think it is important to stay closer to the written intent while letting there be just a bit of a dramatic linger at those places. Your tendency is to hold those notes for several beats and it disrupts the 12/8 flow too much. Given your proficiency with the piece this should be fairly easy to remedy.
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kloeten
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Re: Bach J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by kloeten » Wed May 29, 2013 12:08 pm

Yisrael, Erik, Ken, thank you very much for your comments and suggestions!
Let me try and respond to your comments individually:

@Ken: Yes, I agree Ken that the pauses between the phrases are getting too long. It never crossed my mind that it disrupts the 12/8 flow. Shortening the pauses will not be that hard ;-).
@Erik: Thank you, and yes, this is one of those pieces one can work on for ever.
@Yisrael: Thank you for giving such elaborate feedback. In a way you are confirming my 'strategy' for this piece - you hear a romantic, guitaristic style which is more or less my intention. Perhaps you say that I am overdoing it, which is a fair comment and someting I shoud be thinking of - like you, many people will say Bach's music will speak for itself, letting the natural phrasing do the work.

So good food for thought, thank you again,
Best regads, Rutger

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lucy
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Re: Bach J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by lucy » Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:00 pm

I think this is generally a good performance. :)

However, you're gradually speeding up. I don't have a problem with you playing it in quite a free way, but I think perhaps in your effort to do this, you are losing the sense of beat.

My theory is, if someone plays with rubato, it should still be possible for a listener to perceive where the beat would have been, if it had been played exactly in time.

Personally, I like the tempo you started at. Try and maintain that tempo - be especially aware of where the bass notes should sound. I think this would cause your rubato to come out less over-done and your phrasing, (which is already quite good), would fall into place more naturally.
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kloeten
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Re: Bach J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by kloeten » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:39 am

Hi Lucy thank you for your feedback! It is true, I get carried away by the piece. Sometimes to piece seems to control me instead of the other way around...
You say more or less the same thing about rubato as my teacher - she says if I slow down somewhere I must make up for time 'lost' somewhere else.

Cheers,
Rutger

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Re: Bach J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by zupfgeiger » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:42 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:They are therefore keyboard pieces, and I think they should be played as such.
I totally agree, Yisrael. That's why I don't play slurs in Bach's lute pieces and execute ornamentations downbeat, beginning with the upper note - as usual in the Baroque era and perfectly played by Robert Hill. The more common expression for the lute-harpsicord in German is Lautencembalo, btw.
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Re: Bach, J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by dominore » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:56 am

I like your playing Bach with some romantic emphasis. (Probably the pauses are too long)
I try to do the same; also with the pieces written for cembalo or liuto.
Despite I love Bach and appreciate the opinion of Yisrael van Handel on stricter approach, i play guitar; a romantic instrument with sensual and dinamic possibility and i like tu use them. Guitar is not a Lautencembalo.
The performance of this prelude that i prefer are those of Ricardo Gallen (Very very slow) and Alirio Diaz (very fast).

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Re: Bach, J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by George Crocket » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:16 am

Hi dominore.

Welcome to the forum. Could you please introduce yourself here.
George
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kloeten
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Re: Bach, J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by kloeten » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:52 pm

dominore wrote:I like your playing Bach with some romantic emphasis. (Probably the pauses are too long)
Hi Dominore, thank you for listening and providing feedback.
I agree - the pauses are ridiculously long - interesting to see how an interpretation changes over time (six months)...
Cheers Rutger

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Re: Bach, J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by amezcua » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:16 am

This is an old topic but chimes in with my digging around today . I bought a copy of Bach Lute Suites recently (Edited and Fingered by Jerry Willard ---Newly transcribed and annotated ,including historical and performance notes ) and wanted to try them with a guitar tuned to Kirnberger III with my wiggly frets .(brass frets glued in place ). The Lute Suites appeared to be in C major (No sharps or flats ). It sounded all wrong. I have played this BWV 998 on a violin and my copy was in the key of 2 flats beginning one note higher . So I tried that early violin version on the Kirnberger guitar . That sounded just right . The violin part also has two tunings marked Klang . One has the E string tuned down a tone. That has a very special sound which I preferred to normal tuning .
In between I tested the (Jerry Willard )music bought recently on a guitar in Equal Temperament. That sounded fine too .But there is another twist to this . I have seen a comment that Bach wrote this out for a different instrument in C minor (I think ) .Fascinating and complicated tracing all this . Fortunately the Lute Suites edition tells us the book has been recently transcribed . So ET is good for modulation and also transcribing . The end result for many musicians is to realise that Bach was not a keen lute player but played these on a keyboard that sounded like a lute. One of his little jokes .

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Re: Bach, J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by DmitriTchoulanov » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:19 am

it sounds great to me :bravo:
The sound is good :)

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kloeten
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Re: Bach, J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by kloeten » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:41 pm

Many thanks! Good to see that people still listen to these old recordings.
Cheers Rutger

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Re: Bach, J. S. - BWV 0998 Prelude - D07

Post by soltirefa » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:45 pm

Robert Hill's performance of BWV 998 on a modern lute-harpsichord (available on YouTube)
I listened to his YT videos. Sounds wonderful. Not easy to get the guitar to sound just like that or, in the case of the fugue, to be able to play four voices so easily and have it sound so full. Great reference though, thanks.

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