Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

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lucy
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Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by lucy » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:43 pm

I feel this is one of Sor's most beautiful studies. It grows gradually and has several moments of tension and release. It becomes particularly intense near the end, just before the close.

Please let me know what you think. I particularly want to know whether my attempts at expressing tension and release are demonstrative enough. ie. can you hear this clearly, perhaps, without even listening out for it? By the way, I'm aware that I speed up a little!

Thanks.

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by PAustin » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:46 pm

Nicely done!


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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by ashworth » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:26 pm

Very nice performance! Yes, I can sense the tension and release quite clearly. Your use of rubato is very effective.

The only comment I would have is that, in the places you mute with the right hand, I would like to hear the chord left to die away naturally—but I guess that would violate the score?

I wish I could get the beautiful, rich tone you have, especially in the treble.
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christine33

Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by christine33 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:56 am

WOW - I'm sitting here drinking my morning-coffees and listening to your very nice and soulful interpretation - made my day! I don't like Sor too much, but you made me think ..
thanks lucy :bye:

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by crisscross » Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:21 am

Excellent playing, a nice way to start the day. You succeed very well with the tension-release-thing and the little accelleration can be percieved as part of the rubato. I tried to play the study in an all-free-stroke-approach but you are right: some well placed reststrokes work wonders.
The only thing I personally would do a little different is the following: Your right hand picks over the sound hole during the whole study. Why not move it a little to the bridge at some places in the study? Not to the point,where it sounds metallico, but just to add some silvery sparkle to that study.
Well, I guess you chose your right hand position consciously, so that's the way you want it to sound. :bravo:

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by granadina » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:38 am

Peaceful ..

The indicated tempo is Moderato .
Guess it sounds best at this speed .
( The shift to D# - 25th measure , in the second part was particularly effective )
ashworth wrote: The only comment I would have is that, in the places you mute with the right hand, I would like to hear the chord left to die away naturally.
But wouldn't that exceed the time factor , of the notes in question ?
The lingering sounds have their own charm , but to achieve consistency , won't you have to slow down the entire thing ?

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:51 am

Very sweetly done Lucy!

I like the framing of the video, you, your guitar, can't see the music stand, you thought about it.

Re your specific question, yes you can hear the tension and release, whether you mean specific moments between harmonies or building and finishing phrases. Ideally, it would be a little quicker and more even in tempo, this was a kind of Tarrega-generation Romantic approach (always interesting to try such things) and would be considered rather indulgent by most critics. It actually doesn't matter much, within your approach, that the tempo rises as the melody rises towards the bottom of the page, because its consistent.
People often find this piece gets easier when it can go a bit faster because you need to hold the chord positions for so long, its less tiring, and you have to do some of the harder things towards the end - so its worth a try.
Personally I advocate only ever using a RH damp like that at the very end. It conveys an impression of finality and some idiot audiences will start to applaud the moment they see that, whether its the end or not! And its just not really necessary, it doesn't matter if there is some bit of ringing harmonic or something, between sections like that, I'd just re-plant the fingers on the last thing they touched. This also means that your RH doesn't go out of shape and have to re-find its position before you resume, which in a faster piece, or faster version of this one, can be an issue.
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by lucy » Sat Sep 13, 2014 2:47 pm

Thank you very much everyone for listening and taking the time to give advice. :)
ashworth wrote: The only comment I would have is that, in the places you mute with the right hand, I would like to hear the chord left to die away naturally—but I guess that would violate the score?
I'm not sure there is much space for that, as granadina says. I think for musical reasons too, there is a case for damping the strings at the end of each section. However, I think I should follow Stephen's advice and damp them in the way he suggests during the piece and only damp them with the whole hand at the end. That way the damping won't look, (and maybe sound?), so final.
ashworth wrote:I wish I could get the beautiful, rich tone you have, especially in the treble.
Thanks! It's all in the pushing of the string, towards the soundhole, before releasing it, although it's difficult too see that from the angle of the camera. Also, keeping your nails the right shape and as smooth as possible.

I have observed that many non-professional players struggle to achieve a full sound. They tend to pull the string away from the guitar rather than push towards it. I think it's because human beings' hands have a natural "grab" action, (fingers move more easily in the direction of centre of the hand), but to produce a full tone on a classical guitar, one has to stop the ends of the fingers curling up and keep the whole finger at a similar curve as one approaches, touches, pushes/plucks and finally releases the string. When my teacher first taught me this action, I found it felt very unnatural, but it can be learned!

The best thing to do, once you've got the right action, somewhat, is use your ears. If you hear a sweet and full tone when you play note, keep plucking the string like that. The rewards you will get from hearing a better sound from your guitar will "encourage" your hand (I suppose by laying down some muscle memory), to maintain the right action.

Hope that helps!
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by lucy » Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:59 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote: Ideally, it would be a little quicker and more even in tempo, this was a kind of Tarrega-generation Romantic approach (always interesting to try such things) and would be considered rather indulgent by most critics.
Yes, I'm aware of the prevailing wind on this matter. You've got me on my "pet topic"! :twisted: I like playing it like I did, and to be honest, I strongly suspect that the current approach to musical performance is just what's in fashion at the moment. And even if there was strong historical evidence that indicated that classical era music should be played in such and such a way, who's to say that everyone should be obliged to play it like that, apart from people who are aiming to present a performance in an authentic style.

Regarding that, I once did an Open University course, that said that the historical evidence for how pieces were performed in their time is very limited and not only that, authentic-style performers only incorporate the bits that are palatable to modern audiences. For example, there is a fair amount of evidence that vibrato on bowed stringed instruments was used very sparingly in the 18-19th century, but all modern string players use it extensively, because they know that current audiences are used to hearing it. I suppose it's a bit like some other things, one chooses to heed the evidence that fits!

Personally, I like these two quotes, (that appear to fly in the face of modern performance practices):-

Spohr, writing in 1831, gives as one of the requirements for a fine style, "the increasing of time in furious, impetous, and passionate passages, as well as the retarding of such as have a tender, doleful, or melancholly character."

Regarding metronome markings and rubato: On the manuscript of his song ‘Nord oder Süd’, Beethoven wrote: "100 according to Mälzel, but this must be held applicable to only the first measures [bars], for feeling also has its tempo" And again: "It is silly stuff; one must feel the tempos".

Sorry to write so much, but I feel passionately that a performer has an important creative role and the best interpretations are individually-crafted, to some extent. Look at Milos, for example! He loves to "play" with the music.

Stephen Kenyon wrote: Personally I advocate only ever using a RH damp like that at the very end. It conveys an impression of finality and some idiot audiences will start to applaud the moment they see that, whether its the end or not! And its just not really necessary, it doesn't matter if there is some bit of ringing harmonic or something, between sections like that, I'd just re-plant the fingers on the last thing they touched. This also means that your RH doesn't go out of shape and have to re-find its position before you resume, which in a faster piece, or faster version of this one, can be an issue.

Good point! :)
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By being happy we sow anonymous benefits upon the world."
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by RHSOldboy » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:55 am

Lucy - a thoroughly enjoyable listen. So peaceful and melodic.
Thank you for posting.
Regards,
Robert.

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lucy
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by lucy » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:52 pm

Thank you Robert! :)
"There is no duty we so much underrate as the duty of being happy.
By being happy we sow anonymous benefits upon the world."
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by Belper Bear » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:44 pm

Thank you, Lucy. For both sharing this beautiful piece and also for discussing your opinions about the style of performance.
Fascinating read and a wonderful listen!

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by RobMacKillop » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:24 pm

Well done, Lucy. I enjoyed it. I'm one of those scoundrels who play on period instruments, no nails, all manner of hideous crimes :lol: But that doesn't mean I think it the only way to approach this music.

You seem confident in your own interpretation and technique, so I wonder why you asked for our opinions. No matter, it's nice to get feedback.

So, setting aside the historical approach, I still felt myself getting fidgety when you spent too long on your rallentandos, like an old gramophone needing a few extra twists of the lever to get it going again. I would also have liked to hear less of the accompaniment, more dynamic division between it and the melody. But what do my thoughts matter? You like the way you play, and I'm all for that. More power to you. Keep up the good work.

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by lucy » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:47 pm

Thanks for listening Belper Bear and Rob MacKillop! :)

Very nice to see you back Rob. The forum has been the poorer without you.
RobMacKillop wrote: You seem confident in your own interpretation and technique, so I wonder why you asked for our opinions. No matter, it's nice to get feedback.
Yes, it is. And it's always interesting to hear different angles on things. As you say, there isn't only one way to approach a piece.
RobMacKillop wrote:So, setting aside the historical approach, I still felt myself getting fidgety when you spent too long on your rallentandos, like an old gramophone needing a few extra twists of the lever to get it going again. I would also have liked to hear less of the accompaniment, more dynamic division between it and the melody. But what do my thoughts matter? You like the way you play, and I'm all for that. More power to you. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for these specific comments too. Something to bear in mind. I'm always open to revising things. It's difficult to be entirely objective about one's own performances, so impartial ears can often throw up things!
"There is no duty we so much underrate as the duty of being happy.
By being happy we sow anonymous benefits upon the world."
Robert Louis Stevenson

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.35/22 Study in Bm - D04 Video

Post by RobMacKillop » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:53 pm

That's a healthy attitude.

Nice to be back, thanks!

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