How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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AndreiKrylov
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:52 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:18 pm
And there's another thing. Some of us express ourselves creatively in other mediums such as language or paint or what have you. This is true for me. I hope that I pour some of that creativity into my playing of established composers, who after all write far better music than I ever could. This is valid and soul satisfying for me. That's enough right now.
It is nice for you that you could express yourself via different means!
It is also a great pleasure to read a good, powerful spiritual Poem, or to look at the beautiful painting or other piece of Art! The same with Music - when we read it ourselves (play from score) we are becoming not just the listeners from outside but someones who involved in it who live inside this musical poem, great story etc. for a moment of playing it!
It is so rewarding by itself! Therefore it is great and very satisfactory just to play good music! But if one could express himself via music means - why not? If music is coming from one - it should be let go and it will be nice if where will be educational help in it and atmosphere there are no fear to do it...
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:06 pm

lagartija wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:27 pm
Note: by the time I typed this up on my phone’s tiny keyboard and posted it, two others have posted similar thoughts! :roll: ;-)

Funny that you mention the old masters in painting, Mark. That was the thought that came into my mind as I read Andrei’s post...that education in the arts has long been based on a model of copying a master, both in music and the visual arts.

Many young painters were told to go to a museum and paint one of the paintings by an old master. The idea is that by doing this, it forces you to observe acutely how the master managed to get the effect you see. In doing this, you explore different techniques and discover how to achieve such an effect. This is supposed to give you the skills to express exactly your own vision and communicate that to others. Having done this myself, I can say that by close observation, I did learn how a master controlled light and composition to give a particular effect. This did not at all prevent me from developing my own artistic voice and aesthetic.

In Music, I look at it the same way. If I study a piece of music, in the beginning I hear certain things . As I play it, I find there are things in it that I didn’t hear (when it was played by someone else)...perhaps because my ear is not yet developed well enough or I was not observant enough, or perhaps the performer’s interpretation did not emphasize it as something important. Nevertheless, by trying to copy a particular performance, I have developed a better understanding of what they were doing to get a particular effect or as I study the score, a better idea of how the composer created something that I found intriguing or compelling.
Copying is an educational tool. The difficulty is when in the process you step beyond observation and copying to express yourself.

Nearly all human endeavor has this difficulty. When I studied astrophysics, I learned to use the tools to solve problems. But as a student, they were problems that had already been solved, not problems with unknown answers. To be a master in the field (in theoretical astrophysics), you must be so skillful with those tools, that you can use them to solve problems where the answers are not yet known. I came to the realization that I would never become as masterful as needed and knew that I would never be a theorist. (So I built instrumentation instead.)
In music, I doubt I have enough time left in my life to learn the skills and tools of music well enough to compose anything other than relatively simple tunes, but that doesn’t stop me from hearing a piece that someone else composed and showing you what it means to me with my life’s experience. The skills it would take for me to express myself in musical terms with my own music just aren’t there...just as they aren’t in astrophysics. Is this a flaw in my education? I don’t think so. Some people have better fluency in some creative modes rather than others. In the visual arts, I can express myself fully because I have all the skills I need and the facility to learn any new ones I need to get just the effect I want. I am fluent in that creative mode. The fact that my education in visual arts may have started out as “copying a master” and academic study, did not in any way prevent me from getting to the point of expressing myself with my own artistic voice.
In astrophysics or in music, I don’t have enough mastery to fully express myself...not because of the training, but because of my own limitations.
In astrophysics, I was still able to make a significant contribution in spite of that lack of mastery. In music...who knows? I’ve only studied music for about ten years. Not very long! Still a student...copying the masters to understand how they did it.
Thanks for such a long and deep post, lagartija!
Personally I do not think that all ways in which education organised should be completely destroyed or forgotten.
No, no! But .. I think it is necessary to change direction a bit, to add some more different ways to develop one's creativity more than before. All artists (and scientists too :) ) need tools and technique and rational and logical approach and knowledge and information... and some people will be more productive working in teams, some more working alone, some building part of something by schemes provided by others, some to develop these projects etc.
But ... I think we all as a humanity and classical guitar in particular in this case, will benefit if there are will be more creative people whose abilities were developed even more because education system would be more favorable to them?
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:24 pm

ddray wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:09 am
I hate to inject the usual seemingly sour note, but it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. I've been a student of music for quite a while, since my childhood. I didn't follow it as a career and didn't study it formally and rigorously at the university level, much to my regret really. But I do love music and love the works of the great masters. But is it possible that in terms of "serious" music, everything that can be said *has* been said already? Did Western classical music reach such a peak with Bach, Mozart and Beethoven that everything that followed was just playing variations on what has already been done? The same applies to all the arts. I sometimes get the feeling that the culture is "tired", a sense of creative wells running dry. Is originality even possible or desirable as a goal? Anyway I'll always take joy in re-creating and bringing to life in my own little sphere and my own poor way the works of the greats who've gone before. But if you create and you feel in yourself that what you've created is worthy, that's all that matters.
Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are great Masters!!!
But ... every time could bring another pictures and expressions of our real and imaginary worlds... There are plenty of great composers in each period of our extremely short (in sense of Universe time ) Human' history...
and Music is just the language there could be endless combinations of sounds even in mathematical means alone, but Music is not really Mathematical thing only, it is filled with many external sound possibilities, overtones, special techniques, colors of different instruments and possible acoustic and electronic manipulations in the sound...
therefore - No. We still have a lot opportunities to do something and I think it is our "Culture", Inertia and fear stop us rather doing this rather than real limitations... but it is very difficult to approach even technical level of above mentioned great composers, because they put their lives in it completely...nowadays we often tend to be to busy with many things rather than to concentrate on one (Music) as they did...
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:31 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:20 am
jpryan wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:56 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
Copying and repetition is certainly organic and important part of it, but should be the main purpose of it...as it basically perceived now.
Myself I see ART of Music as more similar to Art of Painting rather than only to Art of performance.
I've never thought about it before, but performing, developing technical mastery, and artistic expression are all distinct sources of satisfaction an individual may derive from playing an instrument... . Ranking their relative importance is an individual thing.
+1
It's possible that classical guitar, being largely a solo endeavor, may attract more people who seek satisfaction from the development of technical mastery to the exclusion of performance or artistic motivations.
Yes, but it's also possible that solo instruments attract people who want to have control over the artistic side, rather than having to compromise with other members of a group or be dictated to by a conductor.

I am not convinced that copying and repetition are perceived as the main purpose of music / CG anyway. I certainly don't perceive them as such, and nobody so far on this thread has said that they do. I think the real distinction is between performers (and I mean to include those who play for themselves in that) and composers. Lagartija seems to see it that way as well, but I don't share the view - between the lines of her post as I read it - that performing is a paler version of composing which is better suited to those with less talent. As I see it they are just different talents. I think Andrei's original question hugely underrates the potential for self-expression that exists within the sphere of performance, as well as the legitimacy of performance in its own right (and by performance I mean delivering your own interpretation, not being a human jukebox).
Yes, You are right in a way of how I put question here...
Maybe I did not put it exactly as I wish... well maybe is my language problem...
But ... wouldn't it be nice if somehow both ways will be equally recognized?
Now in our field performance and copying is seems to be completely dominating part...
And Performance is very organic part of Music field. It is , it was , it will be.
And I am not diminishing it in any way, I am not saying that this or that is more or less important...my point is more about Music education in a way to provoke more creativity and not to supress but to develop it and seems like others here feel the same...
quote of Mark Clifton-Gaultier "think that many musicians feel the same as you Andrei - Björk Guðmundsdóttir said once that she felt that school was all about pushing other people's music into her rather than developing the means to allow her own creativity to flourish."
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by lagartija » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:38 pm

Rasputin wrote: I am not convinced that copying and repetition are perceived as the main purpose of music / CG anyway. I certainly don't perceive them as such, and nobody so far on this thread has said that they do. I think the real distinction is between performers (and I mean to include those who play for themselves in that) and composers. Lagartija seems to see it that way as well, but I don't share the view - between the lines of her post as I read it - that performing is a paler version of composing which is better suited to those with less talent. As I see it they are just different talents. I think Andrei's original question hugely underrates the potential for self-expression that exists within the sphere of performance, as well as the legitimacy of performance in its own right (and by performance I mean delivering your own interpretation, not being a human jukebox).
Actually, I meant that I personally may not have the skills to express my self artistically by composing music, but could still express myself by performance, which I feel is still artistic expression. There are many talented musicians who do not compose, but their ability to infuse magic into the music and communicate that to others is an art form in and of itself. Basically I was answering Andrei’s question of why everyone doesn’t compose and play their own music to fully express themselves artistically.... my reason is that I can’t. I choose a creative mode in which I am more fluent. I did not intend to imply that the art of performance was of less value than the art of composing.
I was primarily trying to point out that copying others as a pedagogical tool was not the thing that resulted in limitation (in my case anyway), because it did not cause any limitation in the visual arts. It is not necessarily because of lack of talent, but lack of fluency with the skills and tools needed for the task. I agree with the concept that performance *is* artistic expression and that improvisation and composition are also artistic expression. They require different skills.
So even if one does not become a theorist in astrophysics, it does not mean that one cannot make a significant contribution to the field and be creative in other ways. Believe me, I knew a lot of theorists who did not have the skill set needed to do the work I did. That is why we made our contributions in different ways. It wasn’t because I lacked talent or intelligence that I was not a theorist...it was that my affinities and skill set sent me on a different creative path.
So it is in music. We all have different affinities and choose our most rewarding mode of creativity.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by David Norton » Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:46 pm

One adult hobbyist's perspective:

I play Classical Music for the challenge of recreating what I have heard done elsewhere, and for the ability to then measure "my" results (good or bad) against the results generated by others, whether professional or hobbyist. Then I can take these aural measures and determine whether or not to make changes. Sometimes I am satisfied with the results I created. Usually not!!

For much the same reason, my other hobby is model ship building. What I am doing can be measured against other similar but not identical work by others. I realize there are model-makers who get REALLY obsessive over details, e.g. a whether a 1/700 scale model of an aircraft carrier should be .05mm longer than what the mold maker gave, or whether the number of portholes molded on the flag bridge are correct for late July 1944. And in fairness, there are some amazingly talented folks out there who create exacting detail even in very small scales, such as individual railings placed on a 6" build of an 800' battleship. Thankfully even the CG world has not generally gotten quite that OCD over someone attempting a precise replication of, let's say, Angel Romero's 1978 recording of "Sevilla"!
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by lagartija » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:02 pm

Andrei, I hear what you are saying about how music is taught. If I tried to summarize your point as I understand it, it would be that right now, the state of music pedagogy is a “one size fit all” model that is not allowing enough space for individuals to learn how to create.
They are too busy being stuffed with the history of music, and with the emphasis on the tools and skills needed to work in the current music industry to have any time to learn how to use those tools in a creative manner until after they graduate from the rigidly structured program.

In that, I think you are right.

The difference is that in the days of Bach and other masters, you might be an apprentice somewhere and spend the years from age 12 to 20 learning what you needed to know. Now, you get 4 years as an undergraduate and maybe another year or two for a masters degree. Are you truly a master after that point? As you said, the masters dedicated their lives to the creation of music.
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by Kenro » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:45 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm

So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Hi Andrei :D , first I want to say that I enjoy your music, I found your music in iTunes when I was searching for renaissance, medieval guitar song.

I think it depends on each person's reason why he/she plays guitar, there are people who play classical guitar because they genuinely enjoy the instrument's sound, while there are people who pick up classical guitar because they want to be the master / best at it. The latter in my opinion tend to pursue for perfection, these group of people strive to reach the top of classical guitar world, and during the process they may end up obsessing over the best technique (while in reality there is no single answer on how to play guitar). They may end up comparing their guitar playing with others, to reach the top it is necessary for them to prove that they are better than the others. These people may be self-conscious about their playing and about people's critics, and may suffer from fear of making mistake and fear of rejection. Furthermore rigid mentality such as "must" and "should" limits oneself to explore possibilities in music. For example a man thinks that a piece must/should be played in the way the composer intends to be, the composer says the piece needs to be played in forte , therefore he asserts that the piece must be played in forte, not allowing himself to experiment with other dynamics. Another example is a man who forces himself to copying Segovia's playing style even though Segovia's playing style does not suit him, the man thinks that Segovia is the best classsical guitar player ever therefore it is a must for him to learn from Segovia if he wants to be the best player.

Fear of making mistakes, fear of rejection, and irrrationally rigid mentality hinder people to freely express their music and explore as many as possibilities in music. I think it is nice when a person approaches music with mind and soul free from fear, insecurities, and irrationally rigid beliefs.
Check out my classical guitar arrangement for Schumann's Träumerei (in original key): https://youtu.be/n4QulIit2FU
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:01 am

Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:00 am
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...and not Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?
I think your question applies to composers more than performers. But at the same time, I don't see why we shouldn't hold on to the roots, for instance by playing Bach. There are people who believe that Bach compositions are just following some math formulas but even if it's true, there's feeling in them. Compare it with some "modern" composition... There are so many marvelous modern compositions out there but there is no lack of "modern compositions" that are just sound/noise pollution.

Previously, composers like Bach and Beethoven were inspired by nature. They had less worries than we do. World wars have made a huge change in the music world - Schoenberg, Shostakovich, etc. They were still dealing with same rules as previous composers (except the 12 tone concept) but started to break some and add some new rules. They could do it because they knew it. They had listened to and studied previous eras.

"Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts". I think it is happening more or less. Now, everybody can upload their ideas, passion and thoughts on YT or similar streams. But not many of them could be considered art. Though, it would depend on how one defines art or artist. It has become much simpler now with the aid of new softwares, apps, etc. Even people with no musical background can make music now and express themselves. But as long as it does not have a message behind that music that we hear, it has no value. Take pop songs for instance, these days there are so many singers that come up with a hit, though they make millions of dollars with it, nobody remembers them or that song a month later when another new hit is in the market. It was not like this in the 90s...
Thanks for your input, Arash!
yes our present reality is very complicated and there are many new opportunities which did not exist before.
New artists, ideas and musical worlds could be discovered via modern technological means.
That is great!
But did our general academic culture and approach/methods of education changed that much? Do they fully reflect modern possibilities, technology and ideas?
I am not sure...
Pop-music? seems like with technological advances it remains rather primitive...as it probably was always..and maybe it is not relevant and not really comparable with Art ?
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:19 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:01 am
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:00 am
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...and not Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?
I think your question applies to composers more than performers. But at the same time, I don't see why we shouldn't hold on to the roots, for instance by playing Bach. There are people who believe that Bach compositions are just following some math formulas but even if it's true, there's feeling in them. Compare it with some "modern" composition... There are so many marvelous modern compositions out there but there is no lack of "modern compositions" that are just sound/noise pollution.

Previously, composers like Bach and Beethoven were inspired by nature. They had less worries than we do. World wars have made a huge change in the music world - Schoenberg, Shostakovich, etc. They were still dealing with same rules as previous composers (except the 12 tone concept) but started to break some and add some new rules. They could do it because they knew it. They had listened to and studied previous eras.

"Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts". I think it is happening more or less. Now, everybody can upload their ideas, passion and thoughts on YT or similar streams. But not many of them could be considered art. Though, it would depend on how one defines art or artist. It has become much simpler now with the aid of new softwares, apps, etc. Even people with no musical background can make music now and express themselves. But as long as it does not have a message behind that music that we hear, it has no value. Take pop songs for instance, these days there are so many singers that come up with a hit, though they make millions of dollars with it, nobody remembers them or that song a month later when another new hit is in the market. It was not like this in the 90s...
Thanks for your input, Arash!
yes our present reality is very complicated and there are many new opportunities which did not exist before.
New artists, ideas and musical worlds could be discovered via modern technological means.
That is great!
But did our general academic culture and approach/methods of education changed that much? Do they fully reflect modern possibilities, technology and ideas?
I am not sure...
Pop-music? seems like with technological advances it remains rather primitive...as it probably was always..and maybe it is not relevant and not really comparable with Art ?
I agree, there has been very little academic change. Although there is no perfect method, I think there are a lot that could be done to improve things.

Pop culture may have never been very artistic but it has certainly got worse these days. The trouble is that it changes the musical taste of the public, in a very negative way. Anyhow, this is what people hear on TV, in the malls, gyms, etc all the time whether they like or not. So both the lyrics and music affects us. Obviously, I am not against technologies and it's not about technologies but the quality of the songs/music that is produced these days. Think of the top 10 pop songs...

Your question about self expression is very philosophical but I believe that music and philosophy are connected. Maybe there is a fear of rejection behind "self expression" but in contrary it's very safe to copy people that have already been accepted. Most of the pioneers that are known and accepted today were once rejected and had a tough time. For some true artists like Vincent Vangogh, life has been very cruel and tragic. Only after his death his valuable works were discovered.
To send light into the darkness of men's heart, such is the duty of the artist. (Robert Schumann)

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by MartinCogg » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:35 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
I see fundamental problem in general approach to guitar activities and guitar education, as well as in other instruments education in field of Music.
Copying and repetition is certainly organic and important part of it, but should it be the main purpose of it...as it basically perceived now?
Myself I see ART of Music as more similar to Art of Painting rather than only to Art of performance.
Our world is changing fast and drastically, and because of technological revolution we have such possibilities of self-expression and creativity which never existed before! Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...and not around Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?
I don't know quite what you're on about Andrei... classical guitar activities, classical guitar education, classical music
education, global attitude to 'our' Art, technology, paint...

(edited to one step at a time)

Does 'classical guitar activities' include me and my daily guitar practice at home?

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art! from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:49 pm

Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:19 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:01 am
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:00 am


I think your question applies to composers more than performers. But at the same time, I don't see why we shouldn't hold on to the roots, for instance by playing Bach. There are people who believe that Bach compositions are just following some math formulas but even if it's true, there's feeling in them. Compare it with some "modern" composition... There are so many marvelous modern compositions out there but there is no lack of "modern compositions" that are just sound/noise pollution.

Previously, composers like Bach and Beethoven were inspired by nature. They had less worries than we do. World wars have made a huge change in the music world - Schoenberg, Shostakovich, etc. They were still dealing with same rules as previous composers (except the 12 tone concept) but started to break some and add some new rules. They could do it because they knew it. They had listened to and studied previous eras.

"Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts". I think it is happening more or less. Now, everybody can upload their ideas, passion and thoughts on YT or similar streams. But not many of them could be considered art. Though, it would depend on how one defines art or artist. It has become much simpler now with the aid of new softwares, apps, etc. Even people with no musical background can make music now and express themselves. But as long as it does not have a message behind that music that we hear, it has no value. Take pop songs for instance, these days there are so many singers that come up with a hit, though they make millions of dollars with it, nobody remembers them or that song a month later when another new hit is in the market. It was not like this in the 90s...
Thanks for your input, Arash!
yes our present reality is very complicated and there are many new opportunities which did not exist before.
New artists, ideas and musical worlds could be discovered via modern technological means.
That is great!
But did our general academic culture and approach/methods of education changed that much? Do they fully reflect modern possibilities, technology and ideas?
I am not sure...
Pop-music? seems like with technological advances it remains rather primitive...as it probably was always..and maybe it is not relevant and not really comparable with Art ?
I agree, there has been very little academic change. Although there is no perfect method, I think there are a lot that could be done to improve things.

Pop culture may have never been very artistic but it has certainly got worse these days. The trouble is that it changes the musical taste of the public, in a very negative way. Anyhow, this is what people hear on TV, in the malls, gyms, etc all the time whether they like or not. So both the lyrics and music affects us. Obviously, I am not against technologies and it's not about technologies but the quality of the songs/music that is produced these days. Think of the top 10 pop songs...

Your question about self expression is very philosophical but I believe that music and philosophy are connected. Maybe there is a fear of rejection behind "self expression" but in contrary it's very safe to copy people that have already been accepted. Most of the pioneers that are known and accepted today were once rejected and had a tough time. For some true artists like Vincent Vangogh, life has been very cruel and tragic. Only after his death his valuable works were discovered.
Yes - improvement and changes are necessary now, in part because of technological changes in part because of social too...
in 20th century one major thing happened in field of music :
Music recordings (vinyl records) became available to anybody.
This thing drastically changed social picture in Music field - before records there was only one way to make music (in home, in public etc.) - perform, play music via sheet music/scores...
but because of records (then tapes,cds etc) scores as medium of playing music which one would like lost its previous significance.
in 21 st century we have a new phenomenon:
now (because of technological advances ) anybody could now just play any kind of music at home etc, but also to record it (and even to compose it too with help of computers) and then to publish it thus making it instantly available worldwide...
Certainly all these changes do not mean that everybody and anybody will do it (composing, recording etc)
People will continue to do what they used to do and what they like and prefer.
But there will be more and more creative folks who will do that.
That is one of the reasons why I asked original question...
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:04 pm

MartinCogg wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:35 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm
I see fundamental problem in general approach to guitar activities and guitar education, as well as in other instruments education in field of Music.
Copying and repetition is certainly organic and important part of it, but should it be the main purpose of it...as it basically perceived now?
Myself I see ART of Music as more similar to Art of Painting rather than only to Art of performance.
Our world is changing fast and drastically, and because of technological revolution we have such possibilities of self-expression and creativity which never existed before! Yet classical guitar culture seems still mainly evolving around repetition, copying and performance of small, limited number of (nice) pieces...and not around Art where everybody expected to share their own music ideas, passions and thoughts...
So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?
I don't know quite what you're on about Andrei... classical guitar activities, classical guitar education, classical music
education, global attitude to 'our' Art, technology, paint...

(edited to one step at a time)

Does 'classical guitar activities' include me and my daily guitar practice at home?
Sure... you probably do some 'classical guitar activities' :)
But... one of the reasons why I asked my original question is that it seems now (according to all guitar educational/academic/press/festivals etc activities) attitude to originality/creativity and to new music production/performance is usually negative...
that is why we hear same music in concerts etc again and again again...
But..
everybody should be free to do what they wish (in music)
please play whatever you like to play etc.
It will be nice if global attitude will change, and creative part of our Art will be recognized at least as important as technical/sport like part...
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:07 pm

Kenro wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:45 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm

So , how to change the whole global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Hi Andrei :D , first I want to say that I enjoy your music, I found your music in iTunes when I was searching for renaissance, medieval guitar song.

I think it depends on each person's reason why he/she plays guitar, there are people who play classical guitar because they genuinely enjoy the instrument's sound, while there are people who pick up classical guitar because they want to be the master / best at it. The latter in my opinion tend to pursue for perfection, these group of people strive to reach the top of classical guitar world, and during the process they may end up obsessing over the best technique (while in reality there is no single answer on how to play guitar). They may end up comparing their guitar playing with others, to reach the top it is necessary for them to prove that they are better than the others. These people may be self-conscious about their playing and about people's critics, and may suffer from fear of making mistake and fear of rejection. Furthermore rigid mentality such as "must" and "should" limits oneself to explore possibilities in music. For example a man thinks that a piece must/should be played in the way the composer intends to be, the composer says the piece needs to be played in forte , therefore he asserts that the piece must be played in forte, not allowing himself to experiment with other dynamics. Another example is a man who forces himself to copying Segovia's playing style even though Segovia's playing style does not suit him, the man thinks that Segovia is the best classsical guitar player ever therefore it is a must for him to learn from Segovia if he wants to be the best player.

Fear of making mistakes, fear of rejection, and irrrationally rigid mentality hinder people to freely express their music and explore as many as possibilities in music. I think it is nice when a person approaches music with mind and soul free from fear, insecurities, and irrationally rigid beliefs.
Thanks! Very nice point, Kenro! Yes it hard to overcome this fear... that is one of reasons why we need to take another look to approach to music education, especially in early, childhood period of life
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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AndreiKrylov
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Location: Canada

Re: How to change global attitude in our Art? from copying as an ultimate purpose - to creation and self -expression?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:17 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:46 pm
One adult hobbyist's perspective:

I play Classical Music for the challenge of recreating what I have heard done elsewhere, and for the ability to then measure "my" results (good or bad) against the results generated by others, whether professional or hobbyist. Then I can take these aural measures and determine whether or not to make changes. Sometimes I am satisfied with the results I created. Usually not!!

For much the same reason, my other hobby is model ship building. What I am doing can be measured against other similar but not identical work by others. I realize there are model-makers who get REALLY obsessive over details, e.g. a whether a 1/700 scale model of an aircraft carrier should be .05mm longer than what the mold maker gave, or whether the number of portholes molded on the flag bridge are correct for late July 1944. And in fairness, there are some amazingly talented folks out there who create exacting detail even in very small scales, such as individual railings placed on a 6" build of an 800' battleship. Thankfully even the CG world has not generally gotten quite that OCD over someone attempting a precise replication of, let's say, Angel Romero's 1978 recording of "Sevilla"!
It is great that we're all different!
Interesting point about modelling and recreation!
Myself when I play classical or whatever music from score I feel myself more like I am reading Poetry.
I could see (imagine) different pictures, imagine unreal or real worlds and if I am trying to recreate something.. then it is probably some of the general culture of that period (with which I am certainly familiar, by audio, visual and other records made by others, mainly by people from those times).
But somehow ( I can't even explain why - I never wanted to recreate any particular performance or artists , but always wanted to do it how I see it myself...
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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