Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
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Chariot0
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:47 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:20 pm
Many thanks for your nice words
You are very welcome.
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:20 pm
I may have done too much rubato in this one :(.
No no no no no. This is ultimately a matter of opinion but that opinion is wrong. lol
Seriously, why would you want to sound like a robot?! Please don't sterilize this piece by making it all in perfect time. None of the comments from the other people who replied said anything about rubato. Please let your emotions out, feel the piece and play with your heart.
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:20 pm
And what about you? Working hard on the #5?
I have several projects that I'm working on. One of them comes to completion this week. I have been playing through #5 but not focusing on it as much as I'd like. I'm liking where I have it but I'm still struggling a little to get it all in one take. I've also started charting out #6 and I've also done a couple of play throughs of #7 in the hopes that I can get them out sooner rather than later after #5 is done.

Peskyendeavour
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:02 pm

Hi Jorge,

I haven't posted a while but I don't think I am going to really post any of my recordings. Even though you so kindly taught me how to and all the apps that can be on my phone. I use it now more as a self critic exercise which I have found very helpful to my practice.

I somehow don't feel I'm ready nor comfortable for the world to have anything I play in a permanent form. I play for my own enjoyment and to be honest too shy to have something recorded out in the open. Somehow playing in a concert live, is different, whatever mistakes, however good or bad it goes, it shall pass. I haven't quite gotten my head over the permanence of recordings, and that you can go over and over it. Of course of the greats and others, I enjoy greatly, I like listening to others, but I can't honestly say that of myself. I enjoy the playing bit, the expressing part, the practicing part even, but listening back makes me feel awkward somehow. I find that I can learn from others, and their playing.... but somehow I doubt I would add anything to that myself, other than make others cringe.

So I continue my trek of: Record, listen, learn, delete.

I'm now on number 12! Having done/ played as best as I could all before that. (I'm also really enjoying Op35 as well as 60... and some Carcassi too... just beautiful, all of them) Amazing that you are on 19 and doing so well, sounding good!

There was mention of staccato and ponticello techniques earlier, Wondering if there is a "right way" of doing this and practicing this, Even going through the Kappel bible there isn't anything about staccato exactly. (Think it was Stephen playing)

I would love to hear an unedited version of your playing, Jorge, with the warts and all, perhaps pretending that you are playing in a concert (perhaps of earlier pieces?) - I see this was raised as a point earlier. From my perspective, purely because I think folk are now all hung up on accuracy and recordings being perfect, but we forget that CDs a lot of them are edited and not straight recording affairs. I have great respect for recordings of concerts, such as those of Carles Trepat done live, recordings of Rob Mackillop on You Tube, (mostly?) done as one take and very accepting of mistakes (not many though must say!) just taken in his stride. Because of the art of editing people now forget that we are all human, and mistakes are normal. To the point where going to a John Williams Concert is a disappointment because it wasn't as good as his recording. That's sad and to an extent wrong. I think it is great that artists like Sean Shibe, I went to his festival event, where he played such technically tricky pieces and of the whole hour of playing he made one single mistake, and it wasn't even a wrong note as such, just that the note didn't come out clean. Ok, these are professionals so don't compare them with us learners, but the point I'm trying to make is that I think people in general should be more accepting of the human-ness of all of us, and even professionals make mistakes, maybe fewer but they do. Segovia have mistakes recorded in live recordings, but does it detract from his playing? no, his musicality shone through all the same.

In that sense I do prefer to hear recordings as if of a live performance even if they have mistakes in. But perhaps all that non-acceptance of mistakes, and that others are expecting "perfectly edited recordings" is what adding to putting me off forever posting any of my one take recordings. Ok, on top of being shy anyway... - that doesn't help.

So what I'm saying is, not so much there is a right or wrong to editing or not, but the mindset is thus, and I therefore shrink away from it.

That said I'm really enjoying Sor, and thanks for starting me on this programme and having friends to share progress is definitely fun.

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Chariot0
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:24 pm

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:02 pm
There was mention of staccato and ponticello techniques earlier, Wondering if there is a "right way" of doing this and practicing this, Even going through the Kappel bible there isn't anything about staccato exactly. (Think it was Stephen playing)
This video was just posted today and I thought of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiBJtS3Wv7Q

In regards to ponticello you just move your right hand closer to the bridge (back towards where the strings connect to the body of the guitar).

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:38 pm

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:02 pm
Hi Jorge,

I haven't posted a while but I don't think I am going to really post any of my recordings. Even though you so kindly taught me how to and all the apps that can be on my phone. I use it now more as a self critic exercise which I have found very helpful to my practice.

I somehow don't feel I'm ready nor comfortable for the world to have anything I play in a permanent form. I play for my own enjoyment and to be honest too shy to have something recorded out in the open. Somehow playing in a concert live, is different, whatever mistakes, however good or bad it goes, it shall pass. I haven't quite gotten my head over the permanence of recordings, and that you can go over and over it. Of course of the greats and others, I enjoy greatly, I like listening to others, but I can't honestly say that of myself. I enjoy the playing bit, the expressing part, the practicing part even, but listening back makes me feel awkward somehow. I find that I can learn from others, and their playing.... but somehow I doubt I would add anything to that myself, other than make others cringe.

So I continue my trek of: Record, listen, learn, delete.

I'm now on number 12! Having done/ played as best as I could all before that. (I'm also really enjoying Op35 as well as 60... and some Carcassi too... just beautiful, all of them) Amazing that you are on 19 and doing so well, sounding good!

There was mention of staccato and ponticello techniques earlier, Wondering if there is a "right way" of doing this and practicing this, Even going through the Kappel bible there isn't anything about staccato exactly. (Think it was Stephen playing)

I would love to hear an unedited version of your playing, Jorge, with the warts and all, perhaps pretending that you are playing in a concert (perhaps of earlier pieces?) - I see this was raised as a point earlier. From my perspective, purely because I think folk are now all hung up on accuracy and recordings being perfect, but we forget that CDs a lot of them are edited and not straight recording affairs. I have great respect for recordings of concerts, such as those of Carles Trepat done live, recordings of Rob Mackillop on You Tube, (mostly?) done as one take and very accepting of mistakes (not many though must say!) just taken in his stride. Because of the art of editing people now forget that we are all human, and mistakes are normal. To the point where going to a John Williams Concert is a disappointment because it wasn't as good as his recording. That's sad and to an extent wrong. I think it is great that artists like Sean Shibe, I went to his festival event, where he played such technically tricky pieces and of the whole hour of playing he made one single mistake, and it wasn't even a wrong note as such, just that the note didn't come out clean. Ok, these are professionals so don't compare them with us learners, but the point I'm trying to make is that I think people in general should be more accepting of the human-ness of all of us, and even professionals make mistakes, maybe fewer but they do. Segovia have mistakes recorded in live recordings, but does it detract from his playing? no, his musicality shone through all the same.

In that sense I do prefer to hear recordings as if of a live performance even if they have mistakes in. But perhaps all that non-acceptance of mistakes, and that others are expecting "perfectly edited recordings" is what adding to putting me off forever posting any of my one take recordings. Ok, on top of being shy anyway... - that doesn't help.

So what I'm saying is, not so much there is a right or wrong to editing or not, but the mindset is thus, and I therefore shrink away from it.

That said I'm really enjoying Sor, and thanks for starting me on this programme and having friends to share progress is definitely fun.
Hi Peskyendeavour:

Glad to know that you are still around and progressing in your studies of Sor's Opus 60 little pieces (already on the #12?! Uau!... :o). Post them if you want - you would be receiving pleasant, encouraging, useful and constructive advice - but that is up to you naturally. I'm also a bit shy when I'm in front of microphone or an audience, be they friends or family, things never come out straight and clean. But then, I'm not a professional, I don't intend ever recording anything for sale (well, not entirely true, I participated on a "single" disk when I was 17 years old - in those days they were still made of vinyl - but it was not classic guitar, it was on Coimbra Song, a student's folk from the University of Coimbra here in Portugal), I just play for the fun of it and sharing my renditions with a limited number of friends such as those actively engaged in this Topic, and listening to their comments and encouragements gives me great pleasure and strength to go on.

Answering to your request, I'm posting the raw file (.wav) as extracted from my iPhone of my latest rendition of Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #19. You can download this file and open it with an audio editor - Audacity, for example - and you will see that I did not play the piece straight away. There are lots of false starts, small sections where I made a mistake and decided to replay it again, missing notes, abrupt ends, etc... The whole record took me almost 5 minutes to finish but, by the end, though I had lots of material that had to be discarded, I was sure I had enough good pieces that I could stitch together with Audacity into a seamless and reasonably "clean" rendition of the #19 (only 1' 38") that I could post for our friends in this forum to listen and comment. And so they did and I'm now preparing a second version taking already in considerations the good advice they provided. This V2 will surely be better than the first one and that is the way I progress in these studies. Meanwhile, I've started already with the #20... :D. By the way, you can use my file to play around with it using Audacity and see how it works. If you experience insurmountable obstacles, send me a private message and I'll try to help you to overcome them. Then you can do the same with one of your own records and show me the result if you feel you don't want to post it directly.

Does it means that I've already learned how to play the #19? Yes, for sure, I know it all by heart (I'm a poor sight reader) and I can play it within a given tempo from start to end... with mistakes :(. And even if I don't make blatant mistakes nobody can say that I'm already playing it well, at least not yet. Some more perfection will come with time. As part of my daily practice I play once or twice all the Opus 60 pieces I've learned so far. This prevents me from forgetting them, and also, I keep on perfecting them. As a result, if I were to record today some of them - namely, the #1-#4, #6-#10, #13-#15 - you would not see a raw file with so many mistakes or hesitations as you can find in the #19 (or all the others not part of this list, the more you advance in the Opus, the more demanding the pieces become). In summary, practising, recording, editing, posting, humbly listening to the comments with an open mind, back to practice, etc... that's what I do and I feel this method has helped me a lot to progress.

Best regards and keep on with your good work,

Jorge
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:46 am

Another triple-header this weekend.

First, the dance-like Number 11 in G major:





Next comes Number 12, also in G major, and (to my ears) a much nicer composition overall. This one seems to call for a more lyrical approach, not a strict metronomic one:


[See also the alternative "Concept 2" version of this Lesson #12, published below]


Last for the set is the very nice study in thirds and sixths, Number 13 in C major:



All three are recorded on my 1983 Greg Brandt guitar, 650mm, made from European spruce and East Indian rosewood.

I had hoped to get Numbers 14 and 15 uploaded as well, but my camcorder battery drained much more quickly than usual. So those need to wait for next time, probably in two weekends from now.
Last edited by David Norton on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
David Norton
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:15 am

Nicely done, David, congratulations. One constructive remark only: on the #12, try to stay on the 2nd string the whole of measure 9 as well as the first note of measure 10, going then to the 1st string for the remaining notes of measure 10 as well as the first three notes of measure 11 and back again to the 2nd string on the last note of this measure. It is easier to play and the whole thing becomes more fluid.

With these new three renditions of yours, David, the table of posted records becomes the following:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 29Jan18.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:20 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:15 am
One constructive remark only: on the #12, try to stay on the 2nd string the whole of measure 9 as well as the first note of measure 10, going then to the 1st string for the remaining notes of measure 10 as well as the first three notes of measure 11 and back again to the 2nd string on the last note of this measure. It is easier to play and the whole thing becomes more fluid.
I interpret the original fingerings as meaning these measures 9-12 are all played on string 1. But your way could work as well I suppose.
David Norton
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:46 pm

David Norton wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:20 pm

I interpret the original fingerings as meaning these measures 9-12 are all played on string 1. But your way could work as well I suppose.
Yes, they are, at least in my Chanterelle edition of Sor's studies. But look at the rendition of this piece by Edson Lopes in You Tube. Quite fluid...
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:25 pm

David Norton wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:46 am
Another triple-header this weekend.
...
Nice work David. You have a solid pace going through these pieces :bravo:

My suggestion - at your discretion of course - is to consider less splitting of diads in #12.

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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:03 pm

mainterm wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:25 pm


My suggestion - at your discretion of course - is to consider less splitting of diads in #12.
Huh. Son of a <bleep>. I hadn't even noticed that. :roll: This is what 45+ years of habit does to a man. I'll do a redo next time I set up the camcorder.
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:10 am

OK, I ended up with some extra time tonight, enough to do two videos. And fresh batteries for the camcorder as well.

First, "Concept II" for Lesson #12. Taken at a slightly faster pace than yesterday, and with great attention given to NOT rolling every dyad, which happened quite unconsciously on the first take. I'm not deleting Take 1 right away, there are some nice moments in it. Also: Jorge, please note I took up your "altered fingering idea" for the start of the B section. And yes, that big rallentando at the end is very intentional.




Next is Lesson #14. While hitherto I've tried to be (overly?) scrupulous in adhering to Sor's written rests, on this piece there are some which don't make sense to my ears. So yes I am quite aware there are a few bass over-rings in contradiction to the printed page. A previous (unpublished) take of this, with all the rests neatly followed, sounded stiff and pedantic to me. There are certain similarities to Lesson #14 and to Sor's "Folias Variations" Op. 15, so likely my mind is somewhat cross-pollinated by that larger concert work.



Lesson #15? Not ready for public consumption yet. Sor marks this one as Allegro, and I'm not exactly allegroing it very cleanly yet.

And after #15? Oh dear. Oh dear indeed.... :shock: :shock: :shock:
Last edited by David Norton on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Philosopherguy
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Philosopherguy » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:18 am

So, I have decided to join the crowd and post a recording with the Op 60 crowd. I just recorded it tonight and I promised myself I would get it done. After getting frustrated for a while and making stupid mistakes, I decided that I would splice together 2 versions to make the whole piece. I might re-do it later and get it in one take with fewer mistakes. But, I just don't record well in front of the mic! I have no idea why I get nervous in front of a mic! hahaha..

Anyways, here is my rendition of Op 60 #19:

https://soundcloud.com/philosopherguy-1/sor-op-60-19

Feel free to comment on it and offer suggestions. I added a touch of reverb to bring it to life a little.

Martin
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:09 am

David Norton wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:10 am
...
First, "Concept II" for Lesson #12. Taken at a slightly faster pace than yesterday, and with great attention given to NOT rolling every dyad, which happened quite unconsciously on the first take. I'm not deleting Take 1 right away, there are some nice moments in it. Also: Jorge, please note I took up your "altered fingering idea" for the start of the B section. And yes, that big rallentando at the end is very intentional.
Yes, David, much better. And you tackle the counterpoint measures towards the end quite nicely... :D
David Norton wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:10 am
Next is Lesson #14. While hitherto I've tried to be (overly?) scrupulous in adhering to Sor's written rests, on this piece there are some which don't make sense to my ears. So yes I am quite aware there are a few bass over-rings in contradiction to the printed page. A previous (unpublished) take of this, with all the rests neatly followed, sounded stiff and pedantic to me. There are certain similarities to Lesson #14 and to Sor's "Folias Variations" Op. 15, so likely my mind is somewhat cross-pollinated by that larger concert work.
Very nicely played as well, with an appropriate sombre tempo for what seems to be a sad melody. I noticed also, and quite liked, the two sections where you lowered the volume, I have to try it myself.
David Norton wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:10 am
Lesson #15? Not ready for public consumption yet. Sor marks this one as Allegro, and I'm not exactly allegroing it very cleanly yet.
In the #15, measures 1-4 are in chords E Major, A Major, B 7th and E Major again, respectively. This sequence is repeated in measures 5-8. This is quite obvious. In measures 5-7, however, I'm not following the fingering recommendations in the Chanterelle edition, I "arm" my LH fingers in the positions corresponding to the full chords of the current measure and I use always the thumb for first three beats and the a, m and i for the notes in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd strings, respectively. This has helped me a lot. As for measures 9-12, well, you just have to start slowly and mechanize the movements...
David Norton wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:10 am
And after #15? Oh dear. Oh dear indeed.... :shock: :shock: :shock:
Indeed... :D From the #16 onwards that's where the "fun" really begins. But, by then, as Sor envisaged when he prepared this introductory Opus for his students, you are already prepared for it... :D

With this new records, the table of posted records becomes:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 30Jan18.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:12 pm

Philosopherguy wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:18 am
So, I have decided to join the crowd and post a recording with the Op 60 crowd. I just recorded it tonight and I promised myself I would get it done. After getting frustrated for a while and making stupid mistakes, I decided that I would splice together 2 versions to make the whole piece. I might re-do it later and get it in one take with fewer mistakes. But, I just don't record well in front of the mic! I have no idea why I get nervous in front of a mic! hahaha..

Anyways, here is my rendition of Op 60 #19:

https://soundcloud.com/philosopherguy-1/sor-op-60-19

Feel free to comment on it and offer suggestions. I added a touch of reverb to bring it to life a little.

Martin
Welcome to the "crowd", Philosopherguy :D. And as of being nervous in front of a micro, you are not alone, I can assure you. :lol:. I listened to your rendition. It is quite nice, a pleasure to listen to - an excellent tone, an appropriate tempo and a good record (though I don't think the reverberation was necessary, you clearly have an excellent instrument). I just have two small observations: I think I'm listening to a note in measure 21 which I cannot identify in the score (it may be only an impression but, please, check) and try to improve the acciaccatura in measure 10.

With this first rendition of yours, Philosopherguy, you gained an entry in the table of posted records :D, which, then, becomes as follows:
Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 30Jan18.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Chariot0
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Chariot0 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:41 pm

Here is my rendition (finally) of #5.

https://soundcloud.com/roger-ramirez-24/sor-op-60-nr-5

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