What it is this word please (Italian / Latin knowledge might help)...

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Stephen Kenyon
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What it is this word please (Italian / Latin knowledge might help)...

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:43 pm

This is the title of the first piece in the Capirola lute book. A student of mine has transcribed it into guitar notation which I have typed up and now its time to produce the final version, and now I realise I am great doubt about this title!

The only word that I have deduced which comes up as a real word is "laudanda", but that seems unfair to the apparently clear 'i" - but that doesn't seem to produce anything!

You'll probably need to expand the image rather to have a chance of seeing it properly.

Title of piece.jpg
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Last edited by Stephen Kenyon on Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What it is this word please (Italian knowledge might help)...

Post by mcote » Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:48 pm

might be Latin from laudandus

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Re: What it is this word please (Italian knowledge might help)...

Post by pogmoor » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:40 pm

It looks like lauilanda (? plural of lauilandum). A search for this brings up a Google Books facsimile entitled 'Gradus ad Parnassum, ou Nouveau dictionnaire poétique ...' that includes the Latin phrase: Ut desint vires, tarnen est lauilanda voluntas. I don't know what it means, though :(

PS, I've just remembered that David Norton has actually seem the original, as recounted here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=111193. I wonder if he has any clue about this word?
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Re: What it is this word please (Italian knowledge might help)...

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:42 pm

pogmoor wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:40 pm
It looks like lauilanda (? plural of lauilandum). A search for this brings up a Google Books facsimile entitled 'Gradus ad Parnassum, ou Nouveau dictionnaire poétique ...' that includes the Latin phrase: Ut desint vires, tarnen est lauilanda voluntas. I don't know what it means, though :(

PS, I've just remembered that David Norton has actually seem the original, as recounted here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=111193. I wonder if he has any clue about this word?
Thanks for that! :D "lauilanda" is one of the things I thought it was but nothing seems to work, and while google translate copes with the rest of the sentence it gives up on that one (Although the power, however, will lauilanda), which suggests its archaic or perhaps a spelling mistake!?

I think David's thread was what got me onto this in the first place ...
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Re: What it is this word please (Italian / Latin knowledge might help)...

Post by JohnB » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:08 pm

Although it isn't the first thought that strikes one, two online lists of contents of the Lute Book give the first piece as "La villanella". One can, however, just about see it - assuming there is no gap between the "La" and "villanella" and that the double "l"s are represented by a single character (archaic spelling?).

Incidentally, the thread that David Norton's thread about the lute book is: viewtopic.php?t=111193
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Re: What it is this word please (Italian / Latin knowledge might help)...

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:24 pm

Looks like La vilanele to me.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: What it is this word please (Italian / Latin knowledge might help)...

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:14 pm

JohnB wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:08 pm
Although it isn't the first thought that strikes one, two online lists of contents of the Lute Book give the first piece as "La villanella". One can, however, just about see it - assuming there is no gap between the "La" and "villanella" and that the double "l"s are represented by a single character (archaic spelling?)....
RobMacKillop wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:24 pm
Looks like La vilanele to me.
Ha hadn't occurred to me it might be one word - in my defence, the subsequent pieces are pretty much all several words and clearly so, including with dots in between ... plus they don't seem to go in for the florid 'l' (if its an 'l').
It makes a lot of sense though if wikipedia is correct in "the early villanella .... is invariably for three unaccompanied voices" because this is mostly in three voices - OK, no big deal, much of the repertoire is too.
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Re: What it is this word please (Italian / Latin knowledge might help)...

Post by DerekB » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:13 am

What we have here is what paeleographers refer to as minim trouble. In gothic script the letters i, j, n, u, and v are all shown by a series of short vertical strokes, often not spaced in a way that aids interpretation. The word minim would be a series of ten of these strokes. In the example above we seem to have a dot over the i so La vilanele seems to be the answer.
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: What it is this word please (Italian / Latin knowledge might help)...

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:00 am

DerekB wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:13 am
What we have here is what paeleographers refer to as minim trouble. In gothic script the letters i, j, n, u, and v are all shown by a series of short vertical strokes, often not spaced in a way that aids interpretation. The word minim would be a series of ten of these strokes. In the example above we seem to have a dot over the i so La vilanele seems to be the answer.
Fascinating! The other trouble if is La vilanele is its writ as Lavilanele.
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Re: What it is this word please (Italian / Latin knowledge might help)...

Post by Tom Poore » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:22 pm

Here’s the original manuscript:

https://ia800204.us.archive.org/6/items ... tebook.pdf

If you look at the manuscript titles for (11) Stavasi amor dormento and (12) Voi che passate qui, you’ll see that the “v” in those titles looks like that of the “v” in La villanella—the first piece in the manuscript.

By the way, here’s a translation of the text in the Capirola Lute Book:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080814204 ... tebot1.txt

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