Musescore voices question

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Sean Eric Howard

Musescore voices question

Post by Sean Eric Howard » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:53 pm

I haven't seen anything regarding adding fifth and sixth voices on a single staff; is this possible?

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sxedio
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by sxedio » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:55 pm

Hi Sean,

not obviously, I can only see 1-4 on the GUI, tried ctrl-alt-5 but doesn't do anything either. Mind you I'm still on version 2.1
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

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cadiz
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by cadiz » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:10 pm

As far as I know, the supported maximum by the music engravings sofwares is 4 voices, and it's enough for all the repertoire (even polyphonic, eg Renaissance period, for lute and vihuela eg)
For what use would you use additional voices? What do you try to achieve?
Or, maybe some confusion about the use of this feature of Voices in the program?
See: https://musescore.org/en/handbook/voices
Last edited by cadiz on Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:20 pm

Workaround:
Notate the music on a grand staff
put the 5th voice on a different staff
Select that voice
On Mac, use "Command-Shift-Up Arrow" or "DownArrow" to move the selected voice to the other staff.

(When printing, you can hide the other staff)

https://musescore.org/en/handbook/cross-staff-notation

cheers!
dirck

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cadiz
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by cadiz » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:27 pm

Well, cross-staff notation is another feature, and again it's inappropriate to talk about a "5th voice".

To solve the confusion (I presume), it's necessary that @Sean Eric Howard provides details on what he wants to achieve exactly (an attach image would help)

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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:01 pm

cadiz wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:27 pm
Well, cross-staff notation is another feature, and again it's inappropriate to talk about a "5th voice".
Hi Sean

I apologize in advance for the following rant.

This is an example of why I now avoid MuseScore. In the past, having posting questions to their support forum, I instead ended up in arguments with prescriptivists and "developers" on the nature of real music.

As far as I am concerned, if the composer feels a need for a feature, well, they have the need for the feature!

@Cadiz: Its not at all appropriate to condemn a "5th voice". It might not be useful to the general public; it might not sell; it might not be allowed by an editor... but then again, it might! I wouldn't try to notate an entire 5-voice fugue on a single staff, but I can think of other reasons for it. The OP is a composer.

@Cadiz again: If a poet is using MS Word to write their poem, they might have a need for extremely unconventional word usage. Asking a question about how to use MS Word shouldn't devolve into an examination of their grammar.
cadiz wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:27 pm
To solve the confusion (I presume), it's necessary that @Sean Eric Howard provides details on what he wants to achieve.
No it isn't...I was able to figure it out easily. Sean, BTW, be cautious of posting your examples to the public Musescore forum. If you must, invent a new one which illustrates your question.

It ain't pretty, but it works. 5 voices, one staff:
aaaaa.jpg
cheers!
dirck
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pogmoor
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by pogmoor » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:17 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:01 pm
This is an example of why I now avoid MuseScore. In the past, having posting questions to their support forum, I instead ended up in arguments with prescriptivists and "developers" on the nature of real music.
More a question of the way things sometimes develop on forums - including this one at times! Not really a good reason for avoiding what is an excellent piece of software. After all, Sibelius (and, I think Finale) allows only four voices per stave. Anyone who seriously wants to use 5 voices per stave (rather than a workaround) might have to consider stumping up for Dorico.

Incidentally I don't think that needing more than four voices is exceptional. In transcribing renaissance lute music I have several times had to find a workaround to display five voices (though it is in the nature of this music that voices come and go and may only appear for a bar at a time)
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

bert

Re: Musescore voices question

Post by bert » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:21 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:01 pm

As far as I am concerned, if the composer feels a need for a feature, well, they have the need for the feature!
Very true, but in turn any developer may think; 'why bother', certainly in an open source program. If interested the composer can download the source code and add the feature himself.
Last edited by bert on Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by cadiz » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:16 pm

In my mind, and surely not to reach a "prescriptive" goal :wink:, five (or more) voices means that there must be five specific voices that "step forward" in parallel and clearly constitute a musical phrase or a fragment of it. And no notes that supplement, "enrich" (? sorry, English is not my mother tongue :? ) a chord in a temporarily way.

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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:26 pm

bert wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:21 pm
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:01 pm

As far as I am concerned, if the composer feels a need for a feature, well, they have the need for the feature!
Very true, but in turn any developer may think; 'why bother', certainly in an open source program. If interested the composer can download the source code and add the feature himself.
Also true, but many competent composers are less competent writing code. Hence, posting the question to a forum.

Additionally, i would hope that developers would take note of questions posed, and use these when updating their product.

cheers
dirck

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:38 pm

pogmoor wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:17 pm
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:01 pm
...In the past, having posting questions to their support forum, I instead ended up in arguments with prescriptivists and "developers" on the nature of real music.
...Not really a good reason for avoiding what is an excellent piece of software. ...
Au contraire, I think it is an excellent reason!

crazyrach97
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by crazyrach97 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:44 pm

I've been playing around with Musescore and found it to be pretty good, but I've never tried to write anything in five voices, either. Maybe one of these days if i get serious about this sort of thing i'll pick up Finale or Sibelius.

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:45 pm

cadiz wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:16 pm
In my mind, and surely not to reach a "prescriptive" goal :wink:, five (or more) voices means that there must be five specific voices that "step forward" in parallel and clearly constitute a musical phrase or a fragment of it. And no notes that supplement, "enrich" (? sorry, English is not my mother tongue :? ) a chord temporarily.
Sure cadiz, and i apologize for being grumpy earlier on.

BTW, "parallel" might not be the English musical term you are looking for...? but I think I know what you mean.

When discussing multiple voices, "Fugue" immediately comes to mind. A 5-voice fugue might be unusual and very difficult, but not impossible, to play on the guitar. Many people might prefer to read a piece like that on Grand Staff, but I can think of a few reasons why this might not be desirable.

Other possible reasons for 5 or more voices per staff:
  • musical examples in a text.
  • instruction manuals. For example, how to arpeggiate / rasgueado etc.
  • the 5th voice might be temporary
  • page layout space constraints
  • OR...maybe the composer just wants it that way!
In conclusion, I believe that sometimes it is better to just answer a question, instead of positing unasked scenarios. This seems to me more like an attempt to make excuses for a deficiency of the product.

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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by crazyrach97 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:56 pm

Didn't Fernando Sor write a piece using the grand staff once? There are days I think it would make more sense.

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pogmoor
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by pogmoor » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:03 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:44 pm
Maybe one of these days if i get serious about this sort of thing i'll pick up Finale or Sibelius.
Which won't handle more than four voices per stave - as I said in my post above. Dorico, on the other hand, will.
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

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