Damping basses using wrist.

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Conall
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Damping basses using wrist.

Post by Conall » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:01 pm

Is wrist / palm damping used as much / as dramatically by other extended range guitarists as by Andreas Koch?



I do use wrist / palm damping sometimes (usually at end of sections or where there's an obvious overhanging discord) but I can see I'm going to have do it a lot more on my new 11 string if I'm to damp unwanted resonances as well as Koch does!

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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:14 pm

Probably the only way to do it quite so conscientiously if you have that many strings.
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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by RobMacKillop » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:53 pm

I do it most of the time on the 10-string. Luckily I am used to playing with a low wrist, with my arm straight. It is very easy to just sit on the bass strings when I need to. You can also be very subtle with it, once you get the hang of the technique, to just partially damp them, allowing some of the resonance to bleed through, as it were. I'm still exploring this, and liken it to the technique of a pianist taking their foot off the sustain pedal - that is something they need to learn and practice, and I'm finding we multi-string players will have to put some effort into that. It's quite an art.

Conall
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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by Conall » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:47 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:53 pm
I do it most of the time on the 10-string. Luckily I am used to playing with a low wrist, with my arm straight. It is very easy to just sit on the bass strings when I need to. You can also be very subtle with it, once you get the hang of the technique, to just partially damp them, allowing some of the resonance to bleed through, as it were. I'm still exploring this, and liken it to the technique of a pianist taking their foot off the sustain pedal - that is something they need to learn and practice, and I'm finding we multi-string players will have to put some effort into that. It's quite an art.
Oh well, me & my mid-life crisis needs a new challenge!
I've tried to adapt my thumb position somewhat to more easily & quickly damp basslines on the 8 string. I'm going to have a lot more to do on the 11 string!

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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by RobMacKillop » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:04 pm

Andreas's wrist is higher than mine, so he looks more animated when doing all that damping. With a lower wrist, and I suppose with no long thumb nail, damping is a little easier and subtle. Nice to hear him play, though - fine playing there. Some players let it all hang out, never attempting to damp basses or resonance - drives me nuts!

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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by Conall » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:07 am

RobMacKillop wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:04 pm
Andreas's wrist is higher than mine, so he looks more animated when doing all that damping. With a lower wrist, and I suppose with no long thumb nail, damping is a little easier and subtle. Nice to hear him play, though - fine playing there. Some players let it all hang out, never attempting to damp basses or resonance - drives me nuts!
Luckily my thumbnail never grows much so I'm hoping I won't have to alter my technique completely. I'm going to have to look at your technique more closely I see!

Ha ha, yes I gather non damped basses are a particular bugbear for you Rob! I admit when I got my 8 string I marvelled so much at the unfamiliar extra resonances (especially C which as you know is dead enough on a 6 string) that I didn't damp much but it quickly became annoying when playing counterpoint. Still , it's nice to have a guitar that sounds like it has inbuilt reverb when you want it (like slow melodies).

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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:44 am

Don't look too closely at my technique - I'm still learning how to control the instrument's resources, and different materials for strings make a difference too. I'm very much embedded in an experimental period.

Yes, the extra resonance can be great - that's why Yepes developed his tuning. But if the resonance is sounding a chord, and the melody moves on to another chord, you have a problem. Many players just ignore it, but I can't make myself do that. So, a little extra work is needed to control it, but it's worth the effort, I think.

When is your 11-string guitar arriving?

Conall
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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by Conall » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:12 am

RobMacKillop wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:44 am
Don't look too closely at my technique - I'm still learning how to control the instrument's resources, and different materials for strings make a difference too. I'm very much embedded in an experimental period.

Yes, the extra resonance can be great - that's why Yepes developed his tuning. But if the resonance is sounding a chord, and the melody moves on to another chord, you have a problem. Many players just ignore it, but I can't make myself do that. So, a little extra work is needed to control it, but it's worth the effort, I think.

When is your 11-string guitar arriving?
That all sounds logical. I am aware I'll also have to experiment - in fact I already am trying to change wrist / thumb angles in anticipation.

Heikki says he hopes the 11 string will be ready by the end of this year - I'm torn between dying to get it & not wanting him to work hastily! I suspect once I get it I will be practicing obsessively to get used to it & once I can get around it satisfactorily (& have learnt to damp those basses well!) & can play a few pieces OK I'll be trying to arrange to meet up with you to try out a lute piece of other duet with you!

RobMacKillop
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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:31 am

I look forward to it!

Conall
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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by Conall » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:15 am

RobMacKillop wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:31 am
I look forward to it!
As do I Rob!

I might try to source some duets that will exploit our low Cs at least or I guess we can adapt existing duets where suitable. But the unfamiliar combination of sonororities (carefully damped when needed!) will be fascinating.

And I'm looking forward to hearing that gorgeous looking 10 string "live"!

Cheers,

Conall

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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by 2lost2find » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:47 am

Even on a six string I keep my palm low for easy muting; it's a habit left over from years of playing electric guitar, and also folk/blues fingerpicking styles in which palm muted basses are a fundamental part of the sound. So going over to the eight string was not much of a transition in that regard and I don't expect to have too much trouble with the lute. Like Rob I am hyper-sensitive to resonances that clash; everything has to be in tune!

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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by pogmoor » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:12 pm

That's a nice piece being played in the first post. I've not heard any of Roman's music arranged for guitar before. I wonder whose arrangement it is?
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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by Conall » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:43 pm

pogmoor wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:12 pm
That's a nice piece being played in the first post. I've not heard any of Roman's music arranged for guitar before. I wonder whose arrangement it is?
I knew nothing about him but a quick google yields:

In the course of history, not that many pieces have been written for violin without accompaniment. A list in Wikipedia shows that the largest part of the repertoire dates from the 20th century. In the 19th century such pieces were mostly intended for educational purposes. That also goes for the Etude from Federigo Fiorillo’s op.3, which comprises 36 capriccios. This piece is not included in the Wikipedia list, nor are the three sonatas by Ivan Khandoshkin and the 15 Assaggi by the Swedish composer Johan Helmich Roman.

The latter has become best known for his flute sonatas, which have been recorded several times. However, Roman was educated as a violinist and oboist. It seems likely that he published sonatas for the flute, because that instrument became increasingly popular during the first half of the 18th century, especially among amateurs. The Assaggi could well have been written as study material, either for himself or for pupils. The word assaggio means 'taste', or - in this case probably more fitting - 'sample'. The Assaggio in c minor recorded here follows the model of the Corellian trio sonata. It is in four movements and opens with one marked grave. The next three movements come without tempo indications. Pilch has opted for allegro, siciliano and presto respectively. Roman was a composer on the brink of the traditional baroque style and new developments. In his flute sonatas we find elements of the style we associate with Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, and in this piece for violin solo the galant idiom manifests itself.


- looks like it might be worth checking these "Assaggi" out! The info comers from this page:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/c ... CD2322.htm

I'm always on the look out for unaccompanied violin music given the great Bach sonatas & partitas. Some of the Telemann pieces are OK too and, like the Bach, fit perfectly well as written on the guitar (so wouldn't need much re-arrangement I'd say). C minor is not a favourite key for guitarists but no doubt it could be transposed.

Now I have to go looking for the sheet music of Roman's.....

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pogmoor
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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by pogmoor » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:11 pm

Conall wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:43 pm
Now I have to go looking for the sheet music of Roman's.....
There's some at IMSLP.org including 'Instrumental Pieces for Violin Solo' - in a facsimile of the original manuscript. I haven't looked in these to see if they're suitable, but it would be a good place to start.

I'd only known Roman for his Drottningholm Music which I'd heard on UK Radio 3 - then heard some of it again when I visited the Drottningholm Palace in Sweden a few years ago.
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Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

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Re: Damping basses using wrist.

Post by soltirefa » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:27 pm

Here are two pieces that are on Goran Sollscher's Eleven-String Baroque album

Andante

http://web.archive.org/web/201012040558 ... ndante.pdf

Bourree

http://web.archive.org/web/200811211528 ... ourree.pdf

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