Before we consider finger independence, notice that the two players are using two very different left-hand (LH) positions:andrew382 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:23 pmIs it possible to obtain such a finger independence that would allow you to lift your 3rd finger almost vertically in combinations like 1 3 or 3 1 especially in the first positions? This doesn't seem to be a problem in the higher positions not even in the first ones if I play on the thicker strings.
This might have been true a while ago and I must stress this that I've played like the second guy for 3-4 years and now I'm trying to relearn things. However at this moment I'm not pivoting...I mean...not sideways like the 2nd guy but vertically. Is moving the thumb recommended? The problem when getting to the thinner strings is that it's super easy to lift the 3rd finger but it's very difficult to bring it back because it straightens out instead of remaining above the string that it's going to play. The 1st and 2nd seem to have no problem with this task.guitarrista wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:40 amBefore we consider finger independence, notice that the two players are using two very different left-hand (LH) positions:andrew382 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:23 pmIs it possible to obtain such a finger independence that would allow you to lift your 3rd finger almost vertically in combinations like 1 3 or 3 1 especially in the first positions? This doesn't seem to be a problem in the higher positions not even in the first ones if I play on the thicker strings.
1. Line through base of LH fingers (solid red) is more or less parallel to lower edge of fretboard (dotted green):
Capture1.JPG
2. Line through base of LH fingers (solid red) is at a visible angle (such that the base of finger 4 is farther away than base of finger 1) to lower edge of fretboard (dotted green):
Capture2.JPG
If you try the first option (parallel), you should find that suddenly it is much easier to reach comfortably and with control, with fingers 3 and 4.
To your other observation about not having the issue when playing on 5th or 6th string even in first position - I believe that may have to do with (i) your LH naturally adopting a position like player one above (parallel), and (ii) your LH thumb being roughly behind the fingertips - simply because the fretboard width fills up the U-shape between your thumb and the other fingers and when this happens we seem to naturally straighten out the hand's position so that the fretboard's lower edge is flush against the base of the fingers (rather than at an angle).
The reason it did not work when you tried that on the 1st string is likely because you did not move your thumb from where it was when you played the 6th string and instead sort-of pivoted on it and adopted position 2 where your 3 and 4 finger are farther away from the fretboard line than your fingers 1 and 2.
Well, these are my guesses anyway.
I am not certain I understand what you are describing, but if you are saying that your thumb remains where it was when it was opposite your fingertips when playing on string 6, and you are not moving it more opposite the fingertips at their new location on string 1, then, yes, that might cause you difficulties like you describe.andrew382 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:30 am
This might have been true a while ago and I must stress this that I've played like the second guy for 3-4 years and now I'm trying to relearn things. However at this moment I'm not pivoting...I mean...not sideways like the 2nd guy but vertically. Is moving the thumb recommended? The problem when getting to the thinner strings is that it's super easy to lift the 3rd finger but it's very difficult to bring it back because it straightens out instead of remaining above the string that it's going to play. The 1st and 2nd seem to have no problem with this task.
Yes this is what I mean. But playing like you told me involves bringing the thumb very low when having to play on the 1st string. Until now I tried to place and hold it in the middle of the neck.guitarrista wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:26 pmI am not certain I understand what you are describing, but if you are saying that your thumb remains where it was when it was opposite your fingertips when playing on string 6, and you are not moving it more opposite the fingertips at their new location on string 1, then, yes, that might cause you difficulties like you describe.andrew382 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:30 am
This might have been true a while ago and I must stress this that I've played like the second guy for 3-4 years and now I'm trying to relearn things. However at this moment I'm not pivoting...I mean...not sideways like the 2nd guy but vertically. Is moving the thumb recommended? The problem when getting to the thinner strings is that it's super easy to lift the 3rd finger but it's very difficult to bring it back because it straightens out instead of remaining above the string that it's going to play. The 1st and 2nd seem to have no problem with this task.
Try moving your thumb down so it is more opposite your fingertips when they are on string 1. Also make sure the base of your fingers is parallel to the lower edge of the fretboard. You should have enough curve in your 3 and 4 fingers now when pressing down and lifting up. You don't have to try to be precisely opposite the fingertips when on string 1; just find a comfortable thumb position which is not as high as where your thumb was when opposing fingertips on string 6. Try to judge by the position of your fingers 3 and 4 - once they can press down and lift up on string 1 while naturally curved (not flexed in and not extended straight), you have found a good hand/thumb position.
Yes this is what I mean. But playing like you told me involves bringing the thumb very low when having to play on the 1st string. Until now I tried to place and hold it in the middle of the neck.I am not certain I understand what you are describing, but if you are saying that your thumb remains where it was when it was opposite your fingertips when playing on string 6, and you are not moving it more opposite the fingertips at their new location on string 1, then, yes, that might cause you difficulties like you describe.
Try moving your thumb down so it is more opposite your fingertips when they are on string 1. Also make sure the base of your fingers is parallel to the lower edge of the fretboard. You should have enough curve in your 3 and 4 fingers now when pressing down and lifting up. You don't have to try to be precisely opposite the fingertips when on string 1; just find a comfortable thumb position which is not as high as where your thumb was when opposing fingertips on string 6. Try to judge by the position of your fingers 3 and 4 - once they can press down and lift up on string 1 while naturally curved (not flexed in and not extended straight), you have found a good hand/thumb position.
This is why I made sure to say the following, above:
Ok...here you go...please mind that I'm not so clumsy as I might seem but I haven't played for 2 years and recorded for 3 and I'm into buck fever again. By the second take I was more relaxed.guitarrista wrote: ↑Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:35 pmThis is why I made sure to say the following, above:
"You don't have to try to be precisely opposite the fingertips when on string 1; just find a comfortable thumb position which is not as high as where your thumb was when opposing fingertips on string 6. Try to judge by the position of your fingers 3 and 4 - once they can press down and lift up on string 1 while naturally curved (not flexed in and not extended straight), you have found a good hand/thumb position."
Basically, I can only react to your verbal description; if that description does not fully cover all the salient details, the response would be deficient too. I had to guess where your thumb was and what your LH was doing because you did not specify that in your initial query. Really it would be best if instead you just post a video demonstrating the issue you have, from multiple sides.
The thumb is where it always is. I don't change its place or maybe I do but I might not be aware of it. Anyway...playing like you're asking me to is going to mean I must change the thumb's position or better said displace the whole hand together with the thumb every string or every 2 string in order to keep the wrist straight.guitarrista wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:42 amOK cool. Hopefully others will look at the vids as well.
Don't worry at all about quality of strokes or sound; this is a diagnostic procedure for left-hand issues and not a performance.
I wish you would have shown us how you do not have issues playing on string 6 in first position (and where the thumb is then). Also maybe more of a close-up of the LH since we do not need to see you right hand.
Having said all that, one thing I see immediately is that your wrist is very flexed (there is a significant angle between your hand and forearm).
I'd say the first thing to try is to play the same, but with a straight(er) wrist. Straight means more or less the way the hand and forearm are like (in terms of the wrist) when you just let your arms hang down by your body.
With that flexed wrist right now, you are limiting/impeding the range of extension because the extensor digitorum communis muscle is in the forearm and runs branching tendons all the way to your fingers. When you keep your wrist flexed like that while trying to lift your 3 and 4 (and 2) fingers off of the fingerboard, you are making the extension harder as the tendons are already pulled and nearer their working limits.
When you adjust the wrist to be straight while presenting the LH to the fingerboard as before, it would mean doing some adjustment to where the point of your elbow is in space - it will come back a bit (i.e. not as far forward in the first positions as it was).
This will also help for an easier feel for fingers flexing as well - because alignment in the wrist also means easier time for any tendons moving in that narrow carpal tunnel; also working more within the middle of the tendons range.
No, the wrist angle is almost like a free parameter in this. Apart from the initial adjustment of parts of your arm to get the wrist straight(er), it does not necessitate continuous changes in your hand position or thumb as you change strings being played.
I think I got it. So you mean beginning with a "neutral" wrist to get some extra room for manoeuvre.guitarrista wrote: ↑Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:00 amNo, the wrist angle is almost like a free parameter in this. Apart from the initial adjustment of parts of your arm to get the wrist straight(er), it does not necessitate continuous changes in your hand position or thumb as you change strings being played.
The wrist angle comments I made are separate from the thumb comments or even the base of finger comments I made earlier.
In fact don't change thumb placement (yet); just change the wrist angle for your first experiment. Meaning - keep the thumb where it was before with the angled wrist, and keep in first position, and keep doing the 1-3-1-3 on string 1 or 2. VERY SLOWLY.
As you are doing this very slowly, straighten your wrist while keeping the thumb where it is - as if you are using the thumb as "anchor". Your elbow has now pulled back a bit, and take time to notice that the base of your LH fingers has now come a bit closer to the lower edge of the fretboard - closer in the sense that, before, that line was "in front or above" of the fretboard on the side of the strings, and now as you are looking at your fingers and fretboard in the plane of the fretboard from string 6 to 1, you will see that the base of your fingers has moved more or less in line with that fretboard plane (if you imagine widening the fretboard as if to add strings next to string 1, you will hit the base of your fingers; whereas before that line of the base of your fingers was "above" that plane. Your LH fingers have also curled a bit more than before.