Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:10 pm

David Norton wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:43 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:59 pm
That's interesting. I guess you are suggesting one may take the pieces of a level and start a thread for each, starting with Level 1: Elementary and ending in Level 5: Advanced, no? Seems to be a good idea. Moreover, as some of the pieces are from Opus 60, if one of us has already posted a rendition of a piece of this Opus in the current thread, those pieces would be accounted for and he could go straight to the pieces of the other Opuses in that Level. Very good... :D.
That would be a good approach, though I think in fairness we should all reboot from the same zero-point starting line. It would simply be that those who have done the Sor 60 set would be able to post new (and presumably better?) renditions of those pieces in a rather quick manner before moving on to the next pieces in each group.
Right, makes sense, reboot Sor 60 from zero. In fact I intended to post new, better renditions of Sor 60 pieces still within the current thread, notably the first ones. I can do it, then, in the new Projects.
I think the Level IV and certainly the Level V blocks are likely to be beyond what you and I can reasonably hope to accomplish at this stage of our lives!
Well, who knows, we are getting better all the time, isn't it :)? If we keep up with the present pace, slowly but surely one may be able to play at least some of them... :lol:.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

JohnB
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:17 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?a

Post by JohnB » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:45 pm

Sorry to butt in - is it the intention that participants do all of the Level I pieces then all the Level II, etc? If so that is an awful lot of pieces for each level before moving on.
Hermanos Conde 1968, Stephen Frith 2007 "Guijoso", Christopher Dean 2018, Ana Maria Espinosa 2014

User avatar
David Norton
Posts: 4413
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:12 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:53 am

Hello John, you are hardly "butting in", though regrettably this thread does seem to have become more of a dialogue than a group effort, lately.

I would envision all five threads being launched simultaneously, so that the higher level players can jump right into the pool. However this would be Jorge's decision, if he is up to overseeing the record keeping for five threads (six, if you count this one as well).
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT
First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?a

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:34 pm

JohnB wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:45 pm
Sorry to butt in - is it the intention that participants do all of the Level I pieces then all the Level II, etc? If so that is an awful lot of pieces for each level before moving on.
Thanks for joining the discussion, John. David and I are still pondering the format of the Project(s) that will succeed the current Opus 60. The established consensus was to use the grading of Sor's Studies proposed by Michael Macmeeken (page 193 in the Chanterelle Edition of Sor's Complete Studies) - Elementary, Novice, Intermediate, Advanced Intermediate and Advanced - five levels, then, and assign a thread to each, managing each thread the way I'm doing already with Opus 60.

To tell you the truth, my initial idea was to launch only the first level, proceeding to the second only when someone had posted renditions of all the pieces of first level and so on. David, however, in his post of yesterday, says that, ideally, all five threads should be launched simultaneously, where not for the fact that this might imply a heavy burden on me to manage all these threads together. In this respect, well, I think I could do it, they are not that many threads to account for and publish some monthly statistics

But there are other things one should concern ourselves, I think. For instance, what about the "together" part of the threads? If one launches all five threads at the same time won't we be running the risk of spreading thin the number of potential participants and/or commentators, thus preventing the creation of a critical mass of persons in each thread? That could discourage its participants, I believe. I for sure, could not comment on renditions of a piece I haven't studied already. And, having all the threads active and open, what would be one's criterium for "moving on" to the next level? Or is it that this should not be of our concern, let any one decide what he wants to do? Any more ideas to throw in?
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

User avatar
Jess Phillips
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 4:18 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jess Phillips » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:05 pm

I'm a little late, but well done David with your rendition of #25! Very well done.
Cordoba C7 (experimenting with strings)
Godin ACS-SA

User avatar
David Norton
Posts: 4413
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:12 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:53 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:34 pm

But there are other things one should concern ourselves, I think. For instance, what about the "together" part of the threads? If one launches all five threads at the same time won't we be running the risk of spreading thin the number of potential participants and/or commentators, thus preventing the creation of a critical mass of persons in each thread? That could discourage its participants, I believe. I for sure, could not comment on renditions of a piece I haven't studied already. And, having all the threads active and open, what would be one's criterium for "moving on" to the next level? Or is it that this should not be of our concern, let any one decide what he wants to do? Any more ideas to throw in?
A couple of ways of looking at this. Yes, it may thin the playing field per thread/group, but may also invite participation from more advance players and thereby have higher participation. There is no way to know.

Alternately, we could do a Sor Op. 44 thread, conducted along the same principle as this one has gone. Then Opp. 35, 31, and finally the more challenging Opp. 6 and 29 combination cycle.

And still further, we could shift gears and do (say) Giuliani's Op. 50 "Papillons" series of 32 etudes. Same sort of material but a different composer and different compositional techniques. For one aspect, Giuliani makes a LOT more use of the right thumb in his compositions! Or, Napoleon Coste's lesser-known but equally worthwhile Op. 51 "Recreation du Guitariste" cycle of 14 small pieces.

In any event, I would recommend not launching anything new for some months, maybe in January, and see if a topic presents itself naturally.
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT
First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:26 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:53 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:34 pm

But there are other things one should concern ourselves, I think. For instance, what about the "together" part of the threads? If one launches all five threads at the same time won't we be running the risk of spreading thin the number of potential participants and/or commentators, thus preventing the creation of a critical mass of persons in each thread? That could discourage its participants, I believe. I for sure, could not comment on renditions of a piece I haven't studied already. And, having all the threads active and open, what would be one's criterium for "moving on" to the next level? Or is it that this should not be of our concern, let any one decide what he wants to do? Any more ideas to throw in?
A couple of ways of looking at this. Yes, it may thin the playing field per thread/group, but may also invite participation from more advance players and thereby have higher participation. There is no way to know.

Alternately, we could do a Sor Op. 44 thread, conducted along the same principle as this one has gone. Then Opp. 35, 31, and finally the more challenging Opp. 6 and 29 combination cycle.

And still further, we could shift gears and do (say) Giuliani's Op. 50 "Papillons" series of 32 etudes. Same sort of material but a different composer and different compositional techniques. For one aspect, Giuliani makes a LOT more use of the right thumb in his compositions! Or, Napoleon Coste's lesser-known but equally worthwhile Op. 51 "Recreation du Guitariste" cycle of 14 small pieces.

In any event, I would recommend not launching anything new for some months, maybe in January, and see if a topic presents itself naturally.
Thanks for your inputs above. Rest also assured that I won't start any new thread before I finish the current one, and even so, I won't rush with a new thread before knowing if there is people interested in it. I, therefore, invite all posters and participants in the current thread - Alexander Kalil, Chariot0, Henny, hgamboa, Jess Phillips, Jonathan Lamb, mainterm, MattPM, powderedtoastman, Philosopherguy, Rob MacKillop, Tom Poore, tsulej, Vinny O'Bryan, Yisrael van Handel and others who did not post renditions but actively collaborated in the Topic with their comments - to come forward and let us know what do they think about these ideas and whether they would be interested in participating in a new thread(s) as described by David in his post above.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Peskyendeavour
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Peskyendeavour » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:55 pm

I would be reading with interest any such threads and comments.
I'm sorry I'm not really a techy or poster of recordings. but I fully appreciate what I have learnt through this thread. I have started to record and playback in a self learning mode.
I would be up for another thread like this, though I must say I am no good with sticking with one thing, and concentrate on just that one thing, so I have forayed into other areas of guitar playing, (jazz blues and plectrum) and also other hobbies (trial biking and motorbiking), and so now only at no. 12-14 .... er.... so no where near finishing.
However at the same time I learnt some Guiliani, Carcassi and other Sor things that are not Op60 so I guess its just that I haven't been concentrating on one thing alone. Maybe my attention span is too short?

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:52 pm

Peskyendeavour wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:55 pm
I would be reading with interest any such threads and comments.
...
Many thanks for your feedback, Peskyendeavour. I'm glad to know that you have advanced with Sor's Opus 60. The last time we talked to each other was about a year ago, you were learning Opus 60 #5 and #6, if I'm not mistaken. You are now in the #10-12 and that's quite an accomplishment :D. As you may have noticed, although more complex, more elaborate and somewhat more difficult to play, the pieces become more beautiful, indeed. In particular, I like a lot the #6, #10, #12 (not easy at all because of the counterpoint measures), the #13 (a beauty) and the #14 (this one has its tricks, some strings have to be stopped at certain points). Further along, the #19 is also quite nice, the #21 is challenging (string stops all over), the #22 is an authentic jewel, as well as the #23 (not that difficult). I'm now in the #24 and the difficulty is to play it at the assigned tempo without mistakes. A pity that you are not up to recording your renditions, we would all be pleased to help perfect them. But, any way, keep on playing, Sor and other authors, it's good to vary a bit. Have you tried Francisco Tárrega already? A genius. Regrettably, he didn't organize his work in Opus, his pieces are dispersed all over. I have all five Volumes of the SONETO edition with his compositions organized, edited and published by Melchor Rodriguez. He still has to publish a final Volume with Transcriptions to guitar of pieces of various composers... Finally, I'm glad to know that you would be interested in future threads similar to the current one. A new one will be coming within a couple of months, rest assured, and, as your post suggests, who knows, one might include other composers beyond Sor. Thanks again :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Alexander Kalil
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Alexander Kalil » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:31 pm

I think you are doing a fine job with the current thread and project. The fact that many participants eventually pulled out is only natural, because one cannot expect everyone to care for all 25 studies. Also, David's learning speed may be too fast for some :wink:

Regarding the next project, I'd say don't bother with the advanced level players - they usually have projects of their own and I doubt they'd participate in a collective group learning effort. As to the next project's subject, I second Coste Op. 51, and of course Sor Op. 31 and 35. Also consider Carcassi Op. 59 Part III.

User avatar
Jonathan Lamb
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 9:46 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jonathan Lamb » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:40 pm

Hey! I contributed to this project over a year ago too, was studying in the Netherlands at that moment.
Well - What interests me about this, apart from the general strong respect for Sor's studies in general, is that I am stymied by one in particular from this oeuvre. It's a real bellwether too. If I can get this, or rather - as I get this - I hope to learn how to really play at the next level. The study in question? Why, of course, it's No.16. The grace notes double in tempo twice, even when you play the piece at a stately pace it becomes technically 'hard' for someone of my merit in playing. But, what sweet complication!
Any tips or tricks please anyone? :?:

User avatar
Jonathan Lamb
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 9:46 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jonathan Lamb » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:43 pm

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful

User avatar
David Norton
Posts: 4413
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:12 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:20 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:31 pm
Also, David's learning speed may be too fast for some :wink:
I took nine months. Having heard YOUR level of playing, I think that, if you put your mind to it, you could master all 25 in nine DAYS. :lol: :lol:
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT
First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:07 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:31 pm
I think you are doing a fine job with the current thread and project. The fact that many participants eventually pulled out is only natural, because one cannot expect everyone to care for all 25 studies. Also, David's learning speed may be too fast for some :wink:

Regarding the next project, I'd say don't bother with the advanced level players - they usually have projects of their own and I doubt they'd participate in a collective group learning effort. As to the next project's subject, I second Coste Op. 51, and of course Sor Op. 31 and 35. Also consider Carcassi Op. 59 Part III.
Thanks for your nice words, Alexander, it is good to know that people values the Opus 60 Project I started almost two years ago. It is coming to an end, though, and I would like to proceed with another Project with the same format, eventually.

As for this next Project, thanks again for the hints, we are really narrowing the selections - both you and David point out "Napoleon Coste's lesser-known but equally worthwhile Op. 51 "Recreation du Guitariste" cycle of 14 small pieces" (which I don't know, never played anything from this composer, I would have to search for the scores, Amazon UK has only a Kindle edition specific for the UK market), or else, to continue with the series of Sor Studies - Opus 44 (you don't mention this one in particular, any reason for that?), Opus 31 and Opus 35. From what I read in the Chanterelle edition of Sor's Complete Studies, it seems that Opus 35 is a run up for Sor's Method and that the Opus 44 pieces were extracted from the Method. So, if were were to consider these three Opuses, 31, 35 and 44, which one should we start first, taking in consideration Opus 60 is already known?

Finally, the Carcassi's Opus 59 Part III. Again, I do not know it, never played anything from this composer, I'll have to search for the scores. They exist certainly in the Delcamps database, but I would prefer to have an edited book and I cannot find at Amazon, they just have volumes 1 and 2. There is also an edition with the three volumes, together with a CD of Carcassi's Opus 60 (an overkill if you just want Part III of the Opus 59).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:57 pm

Jonathan Lamb wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:40 pm
Hey! I contributed to this project over a year ago too, was studying in the Netherlands at that moment.
Well - What interests me about this, apart from the general strong respect for Sor's studies in general, is that I am stymied by one in particular from this oeuvre. It's a real bellwether too. If I can get this, or rather - as I get this - I hope to learn how to really play at the next level. The study in question? Why, of course, it's No.16. The grace notes double in tempo twice, even when you play the piece at a stately pace it becomes technically 'hard' for someone of my merit in playing. But, what sweet complication!
Any tips or tricks please anyone? :?:
Yes, Jonathan, you did contribute to this Project, I checked the Table of Posted Records and, there you are, you posted a rendition of the #19 on Feb 18th, 2017. If you are playing already other pieces of the Opus 60 I invite you to post renditions of them so that one can comment it and help you to improve your play.

Concerning the #16, I also struggled with it for a long time. Fortunately, I had some help. The two fast slurs should be practised separately and, once you are ready, incorporate them in the piece played as a whole. To practice them, you need a metronome and play the so-called "metronome game". I have one in my iPhone called Tempo (there is a version for the Android, I'm sure). For the slur in measure 38, for instance, set-up a cycle of seven equally spaced beats, the first beat corresponding to the first beat of the measure and the last one to the 7th beat of the measure. Then you should start with a very slow tempo and make sure that you play all those seven notes, clearly and without mistakes, 10 consecutive times. Once you achieve that, you increase by one the bpm rate of your metronome and proceed until you can do another series of 10 runs without mistakes and with clear notes. You then increase by one the bpm rate and so on... If you get many mistakes, get back to the previous tempo and start again. I assure, it can take you hours and hours of practice but you will get there for sure. It may help you to look into my posts here when I was practising these slurs. Good luck :).
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/51, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/51, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

Return to “Public Space”