Brooke Martin wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:47 pmIn a slurred grace note, do you also plant your right-hand thumb (or finger) for an accompanying chord tone? For example, if the grace note is a D descending to a C on the second string, and the accompanying C major chord tone is a C on the fifth string, do you plant your thumb on the bass C at the same time you plant your right finger for the D (the grace note), to prepare for when the two C notes are sounded together and to help make a smoother and quicker transition from the grace note to the C, without any lag from the bass C?
Well, I can't think of any occasion when the grace note would go first - please suggest one if you can! Maybe post a recording if you can ... ? Or a graphic of the score in question ...Brooke Martin wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:43 amThank you to each one of you for your replies. Stephen, I've been playing grace notes before the beat, and I would have thought that the accompanying bass note in my example above would be played on the beat. I understand, though, that this can depend on the composer, the time period, the performer's preference, etc. Looks like I've opened up another can of worms (acciaccaturas vs. appoggiaturas). I guess my question then comes down to: If one played the grace note before the beat, and the accompanying bass note on the beat, would it make sense to plant the bass note with the grace note, so that the transition to the regular note after the grace note and to the bass note is smooth? I find that if I don't plant my thumb on the bass note (lower C) when I plant my finger on the grace note, the move from the grace note (D) to the regular note (C) is not as quick. ...
Well I found the Satie but can't bring myself to listen to such a slow rendition to find the relevant bits - not least because, being piano, its of limited use to this question. Perhaps the extremity of tempo influences the matter.Kurt Penner wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:52 pm.....
If you search on Youtube for: "satie gnossienne 1 reinbert de leeuw" I believe you can hear grace notes before the bass note and thus before the beat.
This caught my attention as I was learning the piece and couldn't quite identify what the difference was between my playing and his. I changed my approach after noticing this.
Many of those matters may pertain to other instruments. Not to suggest in a simplistic way that the guitar world is intrinsically a thing unto itself of course I may be being characteristically dim but after very many years following scores and recordings of both guitar and other instruments, I really don't recall notable occasions when grace notes were placed before the beat in 'normal' circumstances; exceptions may have been in very slow tempi or when for some other reason it seemed necessary, e.g. because of a large jump in the line. In fact it would seem to be precisely that clipped, very classical Mozart etc style wherein grace notes are sharply played on the beat and crushed right in.Brooke Martin wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:14 pmThere's more discussion of it here, Stephen, and while there's some argument, they would seem to support your approach: http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... hp?t=94654 I find interesting this statement: The former is more practicable on the guitar [vs., say, a piano], so I suspect that is what most players would do for an acciaccatura. But I also think it depends on the time period (Baroque vs. Classical). For me, the question really arose with some Sor pieces that had grace notes with slashes through them, meaning that they're acciaccaturas. In the Classical era, they're generally played before the beat. That would seem to indicate that most accompanying bass notes would be played on the beat (not with the grace note, but with the regular note following the grace note). But I've read some notes online saying that both appoggiaturas and acciaccaturas can be played on the beat, though acciaccaturas are much quicker, "crushed notes" on the beat. One is left wondering and always learning ... Thank you for your replies.
In piano music there are certainly occasions when the grace notes are supposed to be before the beat. I believe that was the convention during the Classical period. However, much depends on context. How far that is applicable to the guitar (if at all) is another question entirely.
Strictly speaking they might more clearly be referred to as short appoggiature which actually speaks of their execution. Nomenclature sometimes becomes misused and then commonly aprropriated - the term acciaccatura originally pertained to a specific keyboard effect whereby a dissonant note would be struck simultaneously with its resolution - the dissonant note immediately being muted. This effect is of course also available in certain instances on some string instruments such as the lute or guitar.Brooke Martin wrote: For me, the question really arose with some Sor pieces that had grace notes with slashes through them, meaning that they're acciaccaturas.
What is your source for this information? It stands at odds with everything that I have ever read about the performance of 19th C music - in fact you can pretty much say that "on-the-beat" execution of appoggiature was taught as the rule.Brooke Martin wrote:In the Classical era, they're generally played before the beat.
Satie notates his appoggiature in the usual manner ... anyway, he's hardly to be considered when examining the work of Sor.Stephen Kenyon wrote:Well I found the Satie but can't bring myself to listen to such a slow rendition to find the relevant bits - not least because, being piano, its of limited use to this question. Perhaps the extremity of tempo influences the matter.
And I don't have a score to hand to see what the composer notated. It might well work to follow whatever happens there on guitar - as per usual, if it sound right it is right!