ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

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Adam
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by Adam » Thu May 31, 2018 3:28 am

If this was in the US I would be severely tempted.

escasou
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by escasou » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:08 am

Adam wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 3:28 am
If this was in the US I would be severely tempted.
italian_job wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 2:22 pm
As I got a few people interested, all from outside Europe.
I'd like to thank them for the interest they have shown and take the opportunity to let everyone know I wouldn't be able to apply for Cites certification, hence restricting the sale to Europe.

ta
Al
Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 10:17 pm
riemsesy wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 9:19 pm
sorry to hear you have to let this guitar go under these circumstances

Penalties for knowingly violating ESA or CITES include fines up to $50,000 ... I was lucky to receive the Yamaha GC22s in superb condition.

good luck selling it
Yeah, I just don’t want to deal with the CITES paperwork. $1600 US would be a good deal for someone living in the UK or elsewhere. It’s still a fair deal for someone living in the states. There is a 2NE on Reverb right now for $1500. Really makes my 4NE look like a bargain. I will give it some time. Someone in the states will pick it up.

Hi. Regarding to several messages recently posted also in other guitar advertisements in this forum I will explain my case.

I've been thinking if it's worthwhile to ask for a CITES certificate for this guitar (it has Madagascar Rosewood). In the past weeks I started to ask for information about the procedures. First, I went to Spain's economic department to register myself just to be able to ask for the document via Internet. A week later they gave me the authorization. Now, to get the certificate, I need to fill an application with the personal data of the buyer and, additionally, to pay €20 (I attach part of this document. Points 3 and 5 are the ones that I have to fill in with the information of the buyer / importer). This means that I need to spend the €20 (probably not refundable) and to find a reliable buyer because, besides that is a very annoying procedure, I would not be able to sell the guitar to anyone else in about 4 weeks and the certificate is only valid for that person and for 6 months.

After getting the CITES certificate I'll need to ask and to submit an Inspection Document for Species Subject to Control (DIESAC), a document that is very important to pass the customs and will join the CITES doc. At this point I would ask for the money of the guitar to the buyer and send him the instrument. I think that's it.

It's worthwhile? In my case, I am not sure, but maybe shipping the guitar outside the EU depends on the possible (reliable) buyer (of course, the buyer also needs to trust me).
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Sharkbait
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by Sharkbait » Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:21 am

Escasou is correct in saying that the CITES application needs the specific name (& address) of the buyer/importer, so the buyer really needs to commit to the sale for the sake of escasou getting the CITES permit.

Also, not mentioned but necessary: after escasou receives the export CITES permit, the buyer needs to obtain the import CITES permit from his/her own country, and a copy be sent to escasou before he ships the guitar out.

If the buyer is concerned about committing to paying the full price of the guitar before CITES permits are granted, both parties can agree to the buyer paying a deposit first. This gives escasou enough assurance of a genuine buyer to make the CITES application. After the CITES permits are granted, then the remainder of the purchase price can be remitted for the guitar to be sent.

escasou
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by escasou » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:13 am

Sharkbait wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:21 am

Also, not mentioned but necessary: after escasou receives the export CITES permit, the buyer needs to obtain the import CITES permit from his/her own country, and a copy be sent to escasou before he ships the guitar out.
Thank you very much, Sharkbait, I didn't know this procedure. And also thanks for your other suggestions.
Regards.

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eno
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by eno » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:47 pm

escasou wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:13 am
Sharkbait wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:21 am

Also, not mentioned but necessary: after escasou receives the export CITES permit, the buyer needs to obtain the import CITES permit from his/her own country, and a copy be sent to escasou before he ships the guitar out.
Thank you very much, Sharkbait, I didn't know this procedure. And also thanks for your other suggestions.
Regards.
I'm not sure if this rule applies to US. Can anyone give a reference to the corresponding rules? I bought my Bernabe from Siccas in Germany, they obtained all the EU CITES export paperwork (of course after I paid), but I didn't get any import permit and the guitar was cleared by customs with no problems.
Paulino Bernabe 'India' 2001
Takamine C136S 1976
Masaru Kohno No.6 1967

Sharkbait
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by Sharkbait » Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:07 pm

Hi eno, you’re correct - the US does not require an import permit for Appendix 2 woods, only for Appendix 1 woods.

My apologies, I wrongly assumed that the same rules applied in the US as for my country (Singapore).

I had recently checked with the CITES authority in Singapore who confirmed that I will need the Singapore import permit even for Appendix 2 woods, as long as it is a commercial shipment (eg. from a luthier/shop) rather than being brought in as personal effects.

The US Fish & Wildlife Service issued some “Questions and Answers: Recent Changes to CITES Rosewood Protections“ in Dec 2016, and this question specifically answers the point:

56. I want to buy an instrument from someone in another country. How do I do that?

You need a CITES import permit from our office only if the species is listed in CITES Appendix I and the specimen is not pre-Convention. Pre-Convention specimens do not require CITES import permits.

The exporter (foreign seller), however, needs a permit from the country of export/re-export, which shouldtravel along with the instrument, and you'll want to be sure to keep a copy of the endorsed and validated permit in your permanent records. Contact information for foreign CITES offices is available from https://cites.org/eng/cms/index.php/component/cp.

Reminders:

● The exporter should have the CITES permit endorsed by the foreign country prior to export / re-export ● The original CITES permit must travel with the shipment (the exporter should make copies before shipping) ● The permit must be presented to the appropriate inspection agency upon import. Keep a copy of the cleared permit and all related documentation in a permanent file. ● Be sure to provide a copy of the permit to future owners ● Check with CITES authorities in the seller's country to ensure that you are complying with their requirements: http://www.cites.org/cms/index.php/component/cp

Shipments containing CITES-listed species must be declared, inspected and stamped by the following:

● Wildlife - FWS: contact the Wildlife Inspector at the appropriate designated port (see https://www.fws.gov/le/designated-ports.html) to make an appointment for clearance of your shipment. Please review the FWS Office of Law Enforcement's webpage on importing and exporting commercial wildlife shipments, and contact our wildlife inspectors if applicable. ● Products with wood and wildlife - FWS (this includes non-CITES wildlife such as mother-of-pearl): as described above. ● Wood and wood products (exports) - United States Department of Agriculture, Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (USDA/APHIS). ● Wood and wood products (imports) - Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection (DHS/CBP).

Contact USDA/APHIS to determine their requirements at http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wps/portal/ap ... portexport or call the USDA/APHIS Plant Protection and Quarantine main office for guidance: (301)851-2046.

escasou
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by escasou » Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:15 pm

Thanks a lot guys for your replies about this issue. Well, this guitar is still available (while changing the strings I decided to take a few more photos):
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segobreawill
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by segobreawill » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:54 am

Beautiful guitar - of course, it's an M50! That's a nice sound sample too: What a sonorous instrument it is!

The guitar looks impeccably neat, Juan. Did you have the French polish redone or is it the original?

escasou
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by escasou » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Hi, segobreawill. Thanks. Yes, the French polish was redone (only the top) by Mariano Paredes, who varnishes Bernabe's guitars (I'm not sure if all his concert guitars). I bought this guitar in 2012, which came with a certificate stating that Mr. Paredes had applied the French polish, so it seemed appropriate to order the work to the same craftsman (an excellent one, by the way) and to sell the guitar in the best condition possible. Greetings.
Last edited by escasou on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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segobreawill
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Re: ES €.3800 Paulino Bernabé M50 cedar 2012, Madrid

Post by segobreawill » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:32 am

Yes, Mr. Paredes did an amazing job indeed! It looks like it just came out of the Bernabe shop.

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