Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Audio and video recordings of the works of Fernando Sor.
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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:10 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:47 am
I've just listened to the half dozen or so recordings of this piece <snip> are all quite straight rhythmically. this time pushed and pulled the tempo a little here and there - not much, just enough to hint more at the Romantic style which I think Sor was beginning to wake up to. <snip> every performance shedding new light on the music.
A more Romantic approach adds a great deal to the musical quality of these studies. I have a new teacher, who believes in a Romantic approach to Sor, and I must say that his results are superior. He convinced me. Your rendition here is also very pleasing. It makes sense that by this period Sor was hearing Romantic interpretation all around him, and writing for people whose playing style would be heavily influenced by the Romantic style. Regardless of historical accuracy, it gives very pleasing results.
Yisrael van Handel
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RobMacKillop
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:25 pm

JohnB - the original has many slurs, but also left-hand fingering. Very often the 4th finger is indicated for both notes of a slurred pair. I can only interpret that as a slide. As with slurs, glissandi or slides should have a strong/weak feel. I can't account for why players and editors miss them out of add more in.

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RobMacKillop
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:36 pm

Yisrael - I do not make blanket statements such as the Romantic approach suits Sor. More than any other 19th-century guitar composer, Sor exhibits a desire and a willingness to develop his compositional techniques with the latest fashionable ideas. From his early Mozartian influence, to the Schubertian tinges of his latter works, he never stood still as a composer. Compare his opus 9 to his opus 59, for instance. So, I would not stamp his entire output with the specific term, Romantic. But there are certainly moments in his later works that look forward to the Romantic period. I would also avoid saying one approach is superior to another.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:23 pm

JohnB wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:02 pm
...
What does the original Sor manuscript say (if there is such a thing as an original manuscript)?
...
There are virtually no surviving original manuscripts for Sor's solos, none far as I know for the studies. First or early editions are the best we can hope for, and are readily available on imslp.org or elsewhere.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

astro64
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by astro64 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:34 pm

I too play this piece without the slurs, since that was the score available to me several years ago. Now hearing it with the slurs, I still like it better without them...but then, I am not a big fan of slurs in most cases. I played this in a private lesson with David Starobin at a GFA several years ago. He too is an authority on this period in classical guitar music. He prefers the more romantic approach to Sor in this piece. He never commented on the lack of slurs in my playing of the piece, though he did seem quite familiar with the Opus 60 works. Number 23 is also a gem.

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by JohnB » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:21 pm

astro, IMO the importance of the slurs is that they change which notes are emphasised (or leaned on) - from the usual emphasis on the actual beat to the note preceding the beat (whether or not the notes are plucked). This changes the character of the piece IMO.
Hermanos Conde 1968, Stephen Frith 2007 "Guijoso", Christopher Dean 2018, Ana Maria Espinosa 2014

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spanishguitarmusic
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:57 am

This Sor piece sounded really good! I love listening to Sor pieces and this was wonderful! Thank you for sharing.

Jeffrey Armbruster

Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:52 am

Wonderful playing Rob;thanks for that. You really look attentive to the piece and enjoying it a lot while you play. Now I have a reference for when I pick this up!

and yes, I wonder how many of us would guess that Sor was the composer if we heard it cold? the man had range.

astro64
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by astro64 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:18 am

JohnB wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:21 pm
astro, IMO the importance of the slurs is that they change which notes are emphasised (or leaned on) - from the usual emphasis on the actual beat to the note preceding the beat (whether or not the notes are plucked). This changes the character of the piece IMO.
Yes, it changes the nature of the piece, no question about it. To me it makes it sound "nervous" rather than "soothing". There may be value to both approaches.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:52 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:23 pm
JohnB wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:02 pm
...
What does the original Sor manuscript say (if there is such a thing as an original manuscript)?
...
There are virtually no surviving original manuscripts for Sor's solos, none far as I know for the studies. First or early editions are the best we can hope for, and are readily available on imslp.org or elsewhere.
I am not sure how you came to this conclusion. Starting with Opus 33 or 34 (I forget which), Sor published his own works. I have a facsimile of the original Sor publication. It has the handwritten signature of Sor on the cover, and contains the following text:
Proprieté de l'Auteur
<Signature follows>
A Paris, Chez L'Auteur, Rue du Marche St. Honoré, 34
et Chez Pacini, Boulevard des Italiènes, No 18 (the 8 is vitually illegible and might be some other number)

I counted 28 slurs in this edition of #22, not counting ties.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:00 am

RobMacKillop wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:36 pm
Yisrael - I do not make blanket statements such as the Romantic approach suits Sor. More than any other 19th-century guitar composer, Sor exhibits a desire and a willingness to develop his compositional techniques with the latest fashionable ideas. From his early Mozartian influence, to the Schubertian tinges of his latter works, he never stood still as a composer. Compare his opus 9 to his opus 59, for instance. So, I would not stamp his entire output with the specific term, Romantic. But there are certainly moments in his later works that look forward to the Romantic period. I would also avoid saying one approach is superior to another.
Rob, thanks for your comment. I am coming from a previous teacher who was reasonably strict about using a strictly Classical approach to Sor. Under influence of my new teacher, I now accept as legitimate using more Romantic timing specifically in Opus 60. I am not far enough along in learning styles to have meant anything broader or more nuanced.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:35 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:52 am
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:23 pm
JohnB wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:02 pm
...
What does the original Sor manuscript say (if there is such a thing as an original manuscript)?
...
There are virtually no surviving original manuscripts for Sor's solos, none far as I know for the studies. First or early editions are the best we can hope for, and are readily available on imslp.org or elsewhere.
I am not sure how you came to this conclusion. Starting with Opus 33 or 34 (I forget which), Sor published his own works. I have a facsimile of the original Sor publication. It has the handwritten signature of Sor on the cover, and contains the following text:
Proprieté de l'Auteur
<Signature follows>
A Paris, Chez L'Auteur, Rue du Marche St. Honoré, 34
et Chez Pacini, Boulevard des Italiènes, No 18 (the 8 is vitually illegible and might be some other number
Manuscript means handwritten, understood in context to mean handwritten, preferably autographed final draft. Only one of those I know about is the originally unpublished Fantaisie owned by Pepe Romero and issued by Tuscany Publications.
First or early editions may or may not be of help but they are the closest we can get to these composers.
Its a surprise when you think how many manuscripts survive from over a century earlier.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)
Simon Ambridge 'Hauser' (2018)

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Lawler
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by Lawler » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:03 pm

Well and sensitively played.

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RobMacKillop
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by RobMacKillop » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:48 pm

Thanks for all the nice comments. Appreciated. Happy to share some Sor. If anyone is interested, I recorded a Sor Studies album. It's on Spotify, iTunes, Amazon, etc. The usual download places. This study is part of it, played a bit slower than here.

Smith
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/22 in Em - Video

Post by Smith » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:24 am

Terrific playing Rob! I didn’t even notice the absence of nails. I like the push/pull of tempo idea too.

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