Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

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SleepyheadRooster
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by SleepyheadRooster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:55 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:29 pm
David Norton wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:12 pm
Ultimately it all boils down to this: is the goal to perform a musical composition in a convincing and "aurally acceptable" manner, or is the goal to 100% impeccably follow the notation from 200 years ago
There's another possible and valid goal - to focus on the didactic purpose of the musical composition, in this case a study, and use the music as a vehicle for developing one's playing technique and interpretation skills. In the case of Op. 35 No. 1, it is clear that one of Sor's didactic purposes is for the student to learn to incorporate damping in their playing from the early stages. The study is a good opportunity for this because playing those rests enhances the music, as explained by Mark, and does not require any advanced damping skills, as noted by the OP.

Of course one can still produce a "convincing an aurally acceptable", even beautiful, result, while ignoring any supposed didactic intent of the composition. But I doubt if that's the point of the thread.
Thank you. This is what I now see. I can learn something from this piece, and I am working on playing the rests.

I can also learn from Nick’s lesson even though he chooses the guitaristic approach. His performance is wonderful music, and it is a great lesson to me on how to be musical.

I don’t see any reason to be married to one approach. In fact, I find it fascinating to look at different approaches and try them on for size. As I have said, I’m a musician who plays a lot of different music. Classical guitar is just one small part of this that I have recently decided to emphasize.
Best,
Chuck

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by Dirck Nagy » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:59 pm

SleepyheadRooster wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:41 pm
...as a student - and as someone who is not just a classical guitarist - I am trying to find some balance. I’m interested. I’m not obsessed.

I’m also aware that music editors often have an agenda. That’s not always a bad thing.

RCM edits the music for students who (like me) want to progress and achieve certain goals. This, to me, seems very reasonable - especially in light of my own limited knowledge of guitar repertoire. I want to play music; I don’t need to (and can’t, because I have other musical priorities in my life) impress the guitar community with exacting, definitive scholarship. I do appreciate the pure classical guitar scholars. I will listen and try to learn from them. But I can’t invest the energy to be one. Adult decision.

As far as I see it, my Yates and RCM books are exactly what I need right now to get where I want to go.

Obviously, we all have are own priorities.
Sorry, I didnt mean to imply that you were obsessed...i think your original post is a very valid question, and Nick's first post is a good answer. THe thread seemed to be turning into one of those "tempest in a teapot" thingys, and I suppose I was responding more to that.

Reasonable goals and adult decisions are good things!

cheers and happy practicing!
dirck

SleepyheadRooster
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by SleepyheadRooster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:05 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:59 pm

Sorry, I didnt mean to imply that you were obsessed...i think your original post is a very valid question, and Nick's first post is a good answer. THe thread seemed to be turning into one of those "tempest in a teapot" thingys, and I suppose I was responding more to that.

Reasonable goals and adult decisions are good things!

cheers and happy practicing!
dirck
No worries and no tempest here. I really appreciate all the feedback. It isn’t always easy to see clearly how the road ahead will develop. This whole thread amounts to a valuable lesson for me. I have my own opinions, but I am interested in others’ opinions. Most here have more classical guitar knowledge than me. That is helpful even if my perspective is different from their perspective.

Cheers,
Best,
Chuck

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by Dirck Nagy » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:07 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:53 pm
... I don't want anyone else's opinion, interpretation, or bad transcription. I'm finding myself to be the same way with classical; I want to see what the composer wrote, and then I'll make up my own mind.
...
Answered here:
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:10 pm
Looking for Urtext? A "definitive" edition? Lessons from Sor himself? You're not going to find them, and what would it matter if you did?

For a beginning guitarist, this sort of obsession is not an effective use of one's time.

Theres a lot to be said for not beating the horse to death. Just go play the guitar.

crazyrach97
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by crazyrach97 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:33 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:07 pm
crazyrach97 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:53 pm
... I don't want anyone else's opinion, interpretation, or bad transcription. I'm finding myself to be the same way with classical; I want to see what the composer wrote, and then I'll make up my own mind.
...
Answered here:
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:10 pm
Looking for Urtext? A "definitive" edition? Lessons from Sor himself? You're not going to find them, and what would it matter if you did?

For a beginning guitarist, this sort of obsession is not an effective use of one's time.

Theres a lot to be said for not beating the horse to death. Just go play the guitar.
Oh, I understand that, Dirck. Even Brian Jeffery, for all his dedication to the composer's intent, will fix obvious errors where things don't make musical sense. My question... and I've asked it before without getting a satisfactory answer... is why editors would alter a score to make it easier to play. There's so much music out there; surely there has to be another good piece that can be used for the same purpose without having to change anything?

SleepyheadRooster
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by SleepyheadRooster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:43 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:33 pm
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:07 pm
crazyrach97 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:53 pm
... I don't want anyone else's opinion, interpretation, or bad transcription. I'm finding myself to be the same way with classical; I want to see what the composer wrote, and then I'll make up my own mind.
...
Answered here:
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:10 pm
Looking for Urtext? A "definitive" edition? Lessons from Sor himself? You're not going to find them, and what would it matter if you did?

For a beginning guitarist, this sort of obsession is not an effective use of one's time.

Theres a lot to be said for not beating the horse to death. Just go play the guitar.
Oh, I understand that, Dirck. Even Brian Jeffery, for all his dedication to the composer's intent, will fix obvious errors where things don't make musical sense. My question... and I've asked it before without getting a satisfactory answer... is why editors would alter a score to make it easier to play. There's so much music out there; surely there has to be another good piece that can be used for the same purpose without having to change anything?
Probably because they want the student to play or be introduced to that music or composer. Or because they feel some particular element of the piece is useful at that level. Or because they feel the original composer was being far too particular about an unimportant detail, but that the piece was otherwise appropriate.

I teach group guitar and ukulele classes. I edit music for every single class that I teach. It’s not classical music, but it’s the same concept. What benefits my students? That’s what counts.

I see how someone could not approve. Maybe even view the editing as disrespectful?

Again, priorities.
Best,
Chuck

crazyrach97
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by crazyrach97 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:55 pm

SleepyheadRooster wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:43 pm

Probably because they want the student to play or be introduced to that music or composer. Or because they feel some particular element of the piece is useful at that level. Or because they feel the original composer was being far too particular about an unimportant detail, but that the piece was otherwise appropriate.

I teach group guitar and ukulele classes. I edit music for every single class that I teach. It’s not classical music, but it’s the same concept. What benefits my students? That’s what counts.

I see how someone could not approve. Maybe even view the editing as disrespectful?

Again, priorities.
Ok... I'm not disapproving or making value judgements, but my question remains. Wouldn't there be equally appropriate music that can be used unedited? Is early composer exposure that critical? I mean, I'm working from SGP which has a lot of music in it, and there isn't a single Fernando Sor etude till over halfway into the book. I guess I don't see that as a big problem.

SleepyheadRooster
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by SleepyheadRooster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:03 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:55 pm

Ok... I'm not disapproving or making value judgements, but my question remains. Wouldn't there be equally appropriate music that can be used unedited? Is early composer exposure that critical? I mean, I'm working from SGP which has a lot of music in it, and there isn't a single Fernando Sor etude till over halfway into the book. I guess I don't see that as a big problem.
Probably, this is a topic you could raise here with the members of the forum who write methods and edit compilations.
Best,
Chuck

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David Norton
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by David Norton » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:08 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:29 pm
In the case of Op. 35 No. 1, it is clear that one of Sor's didactic purposes is for the student to learn to incorporate damping in their playing from the early stages.
No, it's not. It's clear that coming from a 2018 academic approach this is a possible, maybe even probable, purpose, but we can't climb into a time machine and state this to be Sor's Intention with 100% certitude. And this is a debate point neither of us will ever prove for certain. It may be that students in the 1820s were more self-aware and discerning than students (or teachers!) in our era. Maybe not.

Here's an interesting experiment, and you Alexander are a capable enough player to pull it off gracefully. Make two recordings of the Study, one explicitly adhering to every rest, and then do the other with a looser attention to the rests. Post both in a new thread as a separate topic, and let's see what sort of commentary may come forward.
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT
First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

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MartinCogg
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by MartinCogg » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:47 pm

Extract from Jeffery's complete Sor Studies
op35#1.JPG

I'd never compared this one to any facsimile version before, despite having the complete
Sor Tecla facsimile set as well (in which the Pacini version is used) -

the Tecla complete studies is my favourite version to play from - good clear lay-out, no annoying page turns mid-flow, etc.
- I'm feeling reminded one didn't oughta forget to peruse facsimile versions too... though I wouldn't rush to frown on this
Tecla 'interpretation', I'm glad to be aware of the differences introduced - rather think they should've been mentioned in the
book's 'commentary' section.
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Alexander Kalil
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by Alexander Kalil » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:42 pm

David Norton wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:08 pm
we can't climb into a time machine and state this to be Sor's Intention with 100% certitude.
Notice I said one of Sor's intentions. But 100% certitude is not achievable anyway; drawing conclusions to the best of the available edivence is the best we can do. And the key piece of evidence here is that score with several half-note rests that would have conveniently been avoided, clearly and explicitly indicated by Sor.
Here's an interesting experiment .. Make two recordings of the Study, one explicitly adhering to every rest, and then do the other with a looser attention to the rests .. let's see what sort of commentary may come forward.
I'd be glad to so. Though let's agree that the outcome should have no bearing on the question as to what the didactic purposes of this study are or how the aspiring student should approach it.

crazyrach97
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by crazyrach97 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:52 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:42 pm

Notice I said one of Sor's intentions. But 100% certitude is not achievable anyway; drawing conclusions to the best of the available edivence is the best we can do. And the key piece of evidence here is that score with several half-note rests that would have conveniently been avoided, clearly and explicitly indicated by Sor.

That's what I was thinking. In a lot of those places it would have actually been easier to put in a longer note... why use a rest if you don't mean it? We may not have anything where Sor talks about his intent, but he was friends with Aguado and here's a snippet from Lesson ten of the Nuevo Methodo Para Guitarra:
These rests mean that no sound is played; for this purpose, the fingers stopping the strings which produce them are lifted; but on the third string, which plays G, this is not enough to still it's vibrations for the value of the rest; the finger of the right hand which plucked it must be placed on it at the right moment.
All that, and if you check out people playing the waltz from that lesson on YouTube they all ignore the rests in the first couple of measures. I think Aguado made his position extremely clear; there's no ambiguity at all!

SleepyheadRooster
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by SleepyheadRooster » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:55 am

A good lesson for me.

I can play all the rests now. It didn’t take long to work out the technical side of following Sor’s literal instructions. And I sharpened a skill I’d never needed in 35 years of other playing styles of music.

The musical side of this? Well, that part is probably never done!

My advice to any other person with a similar question about this piece; take the time to slow down and learn how to play the rests.

Cheers,
Best,
Chuck

Alexander Kalil
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by Alexander Kalil » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:53 pm

Following David's proposal I just made two recordings of Op 35 No 1, one with the rests and one without them. I have to admit that the casual listener may not notice any difference. My conclusion is that in this particular didactic piece the rests are more important for the learning player than for the listener. Perhaps you'd like to have a listen and decide for yourself:

https://soundcloud.com/user-720446060

SleepyheadRooster
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Re: Sor Andante in C op. 35 no. 1 damping

Post by SleepyheadRooster » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:44 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:53 pm
Following David's proposal I just made two recordings of Op 35 No 1, one with the rests and one without them. I have to admit that the casual listener may not notice any difference. My conclusion is that in this particular didactic piece the rests are more important for the learning player than for the listener. Perhaps you'd like to have a listen and decide for yourself:

https://soundcloud.com/user-720446060
Nice! Thanks for taking the time to do this.

I think I like the second performance, though maybe not simply because of the rests. The dynamics seem a bit more musical.

To me, the first beat rests remind me of a choral device where voices enter at different times. I like that - both the rhythm and the changing texture.

I notice that you are taking a lot of liberty with the pulse - stretching it in places. I tend to practice my studies with a metronome to make sure I’m not taking liberty out of laziness. It’s a reminder to me to take the music further than just, “correct notes and tempo.”

I have put this piece aside for now to play other music, but since I work out of both Yates and RCM I will be playing it again as I go through the RCM series. And then at some point I’ll probably take time to specifically focus on Sor. But that is pretty far down the road.

Thanks!
Best,
Chuck

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