Musescore voices question

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crazyrach97
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by crazyrach97 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:13 pm

Uhh... Musescore lets me do multiple notes per voice. Just sayin'.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:16 pm

Sean Eric Howard wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:01 pm
Adrian Allan wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
I'm still struggling to imagine anything with five voices on one stave - especially for guitar. Can somebody post an example?
And I'm struggling to hold back from calling you a smartass. I believe you understood the gist of my original question from the start but chose to try to school me on what a voice is. Again, I used the term voice because that's what Musescore calls it. I assumed any folks here familiar with Musescore would know what I'm talking about.
My last post was in response to Crazyrach...why she would need more than 4 voices
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cadiz
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by cadiz » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:36 pm

Sean Eric Howard wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:01 pm
Again, I used the term voice because that's what Musescore calls it. I assumed any folks here familiar with Musescore would know what I'm talking about.
As said by someone else before, Voices in MuseScore is equal, synonymous to Layers in other programs.
I don't know how to explain in another way. Or, think to a voices quartet (SATB: Soprano = Voice1; Alto = Voice2 ; Tenor = Voice3 : Bass = Voice4). It's a good way to organize the notes input in a polyphonic language.
voix plus.jpg
If it's still not clear, feel free to use the support on the MuseScore's forums: https://musescore.org/en/forum/11
Someone who talks English will explain more easily.
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cadiz
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by cadiz » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:55 pm

For complete: as I show in the images above (from your attached image), another notes can be added in the same voice: eg one note in Voice 1, two notes in Voice2, two notes in Voice3, and one note in Voice4.

But, in a same Voice, it's needed the notes have the same note value (let's say in Voice 2: two quarter notes, or two half notes etc.) Otherwise, you cannot achieve that what you want.

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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by cadiz » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:24 pm

To know also: you can use different ways to input single notes (or chords) with the mouse, or the computer keyboard, or virtual keyboard, and MIDI keyboard: https://musescore.org/en/handbook/note- ... ut-devices.
With the way of computer keyboard : https://musescore.org/en/handbook/note-input#chords
Don't know how you do.
But always with the same rule: in a specific voice (eg green Voice 2) = one note or more, as you want, but in the same note value.

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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by musikai » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:01 pm

So now we know that a "voice" or layer in a notation program can also be multiple simultanious notes of the same length all sharing the same stem. Most notation programs are limited to 4 voices. (Musescore, Finale, Sibelius...) Some allow more voices (Encore and Overture allow 8, Dorico unlimited)
I never needed more than 4 voices for any guitar piece, but 4 voices were definitely needed for some counterpoint pieces. For a 5th voice in Sibelius one could fake it by using symbols (if it would be just one bar or a shorter passage).
Here was a question about using 5 voices in Musescore and the solution:
https://musescore.org/en/node/165516

My question is: what would be a better word than "voices"? Almost all notation programs use it but the term really is so often misunderstood. No wonder as we never would think of multiple tones when we hear a voice. Or is it indeed a good choice and we have to learn that each voice we hear is a sound of a multitude of partial tones that share and last for the same breath? Is there a word that would describe the concept better and be immediately understood?
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Dirck Nagy
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:12 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
I'm still struggling to imagine anything with five voices on one stave - especially for guitar. Can somebody post an example?
Iznaola's Kitharologus Exercise 14. needs 6 voices in order to make the rests clear.

Why is this so hard to imagine? You're a composer and an arranger...what about some moving voices against some slower moving voices over a pedal point?

Try this...here is measure 9 from the Sor Op 4 example referred earlier. It is 4 voices (or "layers", for you Finale users out there) as written. Now, just add a half-note, 5th string "B" on beat 2 and a quarter note on beat 4. Voila, 5 voices! Its not even that hard to play.
sor 2.JPG
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crazyrach97
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by crazyrach97 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:55 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:12 pm
Adrian Allan wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
I'm still struggling to imagine anything with five voices on one stave - especially for guitar. Can somebody post an example?
Iznaola's Kitharologus Exercise 14. needs 6 voices in order to make the rests clear.

Why is this so hard to imagine? You're a composer and an arranger...what about some moving voices against some slower moving voices over a pedal point?

Try this...here is measure 9 from the Sor Op 4 example referred earlier. It is 4 voices (or "layers", for you Finale users out there) as written. Now, just add a half-note, 5th string "B" on beat 2 and a quarter note on beat 4. Voila, 5 voices! Its not even that hard to play.

sor 2.JPG
OK, you win. I was scratching my head trying to imagine what you'd need five voices for in a guitar score and there it is.

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cadiz
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by cadiz » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:16 am

There is a feature in MuseScore that allows you to change the head types of notes. A quarter note - in the same Voice, eg 1 - can appear as a half note or in whole note (by hidding here the stem). With four available voices, this allows you all kinds of things, as you wish.
blue notes.jpg
So, if Fernando Sor lived nowadays, and he would like to add a fifth voice, he could do it as well (the displaying of the second measure - image below - is better, no one now would show the E bass whole note displayed in the middle of the measure)

Sor++.jpg
And for Kitharologus, Exercice 14, it's still the same principle. I changed some heads of note, I added some symbols of rests when necessary. With some skills with the program, of course, it's really not a big deal to achieve this.

kytharologus.jpg
If all six voices were implemented, I would have saved a bit time, I agree. But I think we can say that they are corner cases, unusual. And in terms of implementation, the human cost and time would probably be considerable (I am not a programmer, I can be wrong) for cases of compatibility with other versions, other programs and formats (musicxml, Midi, GP, and others).

In addition, the guitar is really a case apart, a polyphonic instrument that is written on a single staff (that's perhaps why we cherish it so much!) :D As written already, we can use two staves if necessary (it's not so uncommun in the contemporary repertoire)

The piano and others play on two or three staves, and the melodic instruments (the orchestra instruments eg) are not impacted, of course.
Composers would probably be the most concerned. But again, it's possible to show just about anything you want and how you want with MuseScore.

And as for the possibility of applying these 5 or 6 voices in a polyphonic language, I don't know how, even the greatest virtuoso, would be be able to conduct and hold several voices at once (already, currently, with 4 voices, we are forced to make a choice, to shorten such or such note duration, because simply the left hand can not do it.)

Finally, as I said before, this feature request is not illegitimate in itself. But if you want it, you have to ask it - nobody will do it for you - and defend it and argue solidly.

Out of curiosity, I looked at the number of official feature requests currently in MuseScore. There are 31 pages! For a staggering total of 767 !! It makes you dizzy! :aide: :sorride:

feature request.jpg
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Last edited by cadiz on Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:57 am

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:12 pm
Adrian Allan wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:53 pm
I'm still struggling to imagine anything with five voices on one stave - especially for guitar. Can somebody post an example?
Iznaola's Kitharologus Exercise 14. needs 6 voices in order to make the rests clear.

Why is this so hard to imagine? You're a composer and an arranger...what about some moving voices against some slower moving voices over a pedal point?

Try this...here is measure 9 from the Sor Op 4 example referred earlier. It is 4 voices (or "layers", for you Finale users out there) as written. Now, just add a half-note, 5th string "B" on beat 2 and a quarter note on beat 4. Voila, 5 voices! Its not even that hard to play.

sor 2.JPG
Ok, but this is very rare.

BTW I am an amateur arranger and composer of tonal music only and don't pretend to be some sort of expert.
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sxedio
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by sxedio » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:30 am

cadiz wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:10 pm

For what use would you use additional voices? What do you try to achieve?
This reminds me of discussions with the IT department and other such bureaucrats :shock: :? Though for the record, it was clear that Sean needed to explain more, as you can indeed put a whole chord in Voice 1 (see e.g. viewtopic.php?f=101&t=62941&hilit=muses ... 5#p1267799 )
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:49 am

sxedio wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:30 am
cadiz wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:10 pm

For what use would you use additional voices? What do you try to achieve?
This reminds me of discussions with the IT department and other such bureaucrats :shock: :? Though for the record, it was clear that Sean needed to explain more, as you can indeed put a whole chord in Voice 1 (see e.g. viewtopic.php?f=101&t=62941&hilit=muses ... 5#p1267799 )
While I was arranging pieces for my latest book, I was faced with all sorts of decisions on whether to use three voices or two. One voice was never acceptable. Some very old books might feature one voice.

Three voices does add complications - when a voice is not used, rests need to put in the score. These rests can conflict with notes, especially crotchet rests . Fortunately, the size of rests can be reduced in Sibelius. I cannot imagine how complex a job editing 4 voices on one stave must be.
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cadiz
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by cadiz » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:41 am

sxedio wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:30 am
cadiz wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:10 pm
For what use would you use additional voices? What do you try to achieve?
This reminds me of discussions with the IT department and other such bureaucrats
Bureaucrat? My brother maybe (he was a bank employee!) For my part, I am "only" a performer and guitar teacher :wink:

It was a simple question (in briefe, what are you trying to accomplish?) to get information about the context and the use case. This is a common question for programmers and forum members, to fully understand the use case, and to check if it can be accomplished in a way that the user would not know yet (which is frequent), and if there is not confusion somewhere (which is frequent too)
No more, but essential to get the best support as possible.
Adrian Allan wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:49 am
Three voices does add complications - when a voice is not used, rests need to put in the score. These rests can conflict with notes, especially crotchet rests . Fortunately, the size of rests can be reduced in Sibelius. I cannot imagine how complex a job editing 4 voices on one stave must be.
I do not know for Sibelius, but in MuseScore rests can be deleted (in voices 2,3,4) or hidden (shortcut "V"), and hidden only in voice 1. (their size too can be reduced). So, no sort of conflict or complication here.
Last edited by cadiz on Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:47 am

Yes, rests can be deleted in Sibelius as well, but that creates bars where things may not mathematically add up, so I avoid it wherever possible.
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Re: Musescore voices question

Post by PeteJ » Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:37 pm

I can't imagine ever wanting to use a fifth voice for gtr music and cannot think of an example. Four is a lot. I see no problem with calling them voices, this being what they are. A string quartet is four voices but at any time the four voices might play ten of more notes. Handling voices seems very easy on Musecore.

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