Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
Ray
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Ray » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:33 am

ddray wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:39 am
Ray wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:28 am
...
Sorry I'm not following you here - when did Starobin waste time and energy?
dday responded - When he did something musically other than concentrate on playing the guitar-only repertoire beautifully for the public.

Ray responds

No of course not! The first third of his life formed the basis of his musical education, exposing and immersing himself in music of all the musical periods, the composers and repertoire for the various instruments while learning to play the guitar well and to a virtuoso level from his teacher Aaron Shearer, an excellent well respected pedagogue. These are not wasted years at all, they're the foundation of everything that comes afterward!

After that though, the next 45+ years of Starobin's life to this present day have been devoted to the development of the guitar, which is his first love and creating new repertoire for it, commissioning and introducing new works for it not just by itself, but also many works that place the guitar with other instruments as an equal partner, thus hopefully continuing to raise its status to the level of other classical instruments. I can only imagine the how well Starobin's guitar playing and understanding of music, not to mention his chamber music skills, have been enriched by playing a rainbow of different compositions from many different composers with all these various different instrumentalists in public performances and recordings for over four decades! Truly a very fortunate and inspiring musical life where no time and energy has been wasted at all! :D

Dirck Nagy
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Location: Wisconsin, USA

Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:18 am

Adrian Allan wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:02 pm
Ok - I accept that

All I am asking for is more of the music that is commissioned for festivals and competitions etc etc,to be written with more a tonal mindset.

It just so happens that nearly every commission that comes up (Bream commissions as well), divides opinion and alienates a lot of people. I don't think that's good - it's not a healthy situation.

and people won't suddenly be welcoming to this style of music, as the other side of the camp accuses those like me of being narrow minded. These tired old debates always happen. And before you say it - if it wasn't me moaning, somebody else would be.

So there should be an insistence of festival composers doing something that reaches out and appeals to us all for once it a while. My example - Tres Piezas Espanolas by Rodrigo - something for all of us (the intellectuals and the general lovers of classical music)
Hi Adrian, several of your past posts display a similar sentiment. As others have said, "Its OK to not like something." However, if you want to actually change something, thats another matter.

It is very easy to criticize, denigrate, belittle, destroy, and worse. But what will you replace it with? That is the challenge.

You seem to have a pretty clear idea of what you want to hear. If I may offer some input, I think there are a few possibilities. One can:
  • Write your own pieces.
  • Record them.
  • Commission your own pieces from established composers.
  • Find someone to perform them. (I've done it myself. Lots of people enjoy playing premieres!)
  • Gather your own audience together. (Its not that difficult...we all do it to some extent)
  • Start your own festival. Find some like-minded people to help. Financial backing might be difficult, but all these festivals had to begin somewhere!
All of these are proactive. They are also a lot of work. But I think the end result has the potential to actually add some value to all of our lives, something that railing on about the state of things on internet forums never does.

Look, every piece of music was written to fill a need. They didn't just appear at random. You have a clearly articulated need for a different type of music...go out and create it!

cheers!
dirck

Ray
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Ray » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:27 am

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:18 am
Adrian Allan wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:02 pm
Ok - I accept that

All I am asking for is more of the music that is commissioned for festivals and competitions etc etc,to be written with more a tonal mindset.

It just so happens that nearly every commission that comes up (Bream commissions as well), divides opinion and alienates a lot of people. I don't think that's good - it's not a healthy situation.

and people won't suddenly be welcoming to this style of music, as the other side of the camp accuses those like me of being narrow minded. These tired old debates always happen. And before you say it - if it wasn't me moaning, somebody else would be.

So there should be an insistence of festival composers doing something that reaches out and appeals to us all for once it a while. My example - Tres Piezas Espanolas by Rodrigo - something for all of us (the intellectuals and the general lovers of classical music)
Hi Adrian, several of your past posts display a similar sentiment. As others have said, "Its OK to not like something." However, if you want to actually change something, thats another matter.

It is very easy to criticize, denigrate, belittle, destroy, and worse. But what will you replace it with? That is the challenge.

You seem to have a pretty clear idea of what you want to hear. If I may offer some input, I think there are a few possibilities. One can:
  • Write your own pieces.
  • Record them.
  • Commission your own pieces from established composers.
  • Find someone to perform them. (I've done it myself. Lots of people enjoy playing premieres!)
  • Gather your own audience together. (Its not that difficult...we all do it to some extent)
  • Start your own festival. Find some like-minded people to help. Financial backing might be difficult, but all these festivals had to begin somewhere!
All of these are proactive. They are also a lot of work. But I think the end result has the potential to actually add some value to all of our lives, something that railing on about the state of things on internet forums never does.

Look, every piece of music was written to fill a need. They didn't just appear at random. You have a clearly articulated need for a different type of music...go out and create it!

cheers!
dirck
Dirck where have you been? Love this inspiring and practical post of yours! :D

To Adrian's credit he is writing this here book (pic below)- but as you so clearly said with much wisdom - if you really want to change something you have to be proactive. And there's no guarantee that doing all that you wrote will produce what Adrian is looking for but if he's really passionate about it then it's worth pursuing, however long that may take.

Thanks a lot!
:merci:
guitar compose book21.jpg
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ddray
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by ddray » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:43 am

Ray wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:33 am

No of course not! The first third of his life formed the basis of his musical education, exposing and immersing himself in music of all the musical periods, the composers and repertoire for the various instruments while learning to play the guitar well and to a virtuoso level from his teacher Aaron Shearer, an excellent well respected pedagogue. These are not wasted years at all, they're the foundation of everything that comes afterward! ...
Yeah, which is what I've been saying is desirable. Come on, now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. If they play Asturias beautifully AND know sonata form, if they know sonata form but play Asturias badly, if they play Sor and Tedesco badly but know sonata form and Gregorian Chant...look, the point *again* is that if you immerse yourself *only* in music written expressly for cg, you are going to be musically deprived and impoverished, period, end of. Remember that the topic of this tangent was "transcriptions or no transcriptions?" In my view, a repertoire minus transcriptions of truly great music by Bach and others is going to be massively poorer and of interest almost exclusively to the guitar fraternity. Now I'm finished with this particular hair-splitting contest.

Ray
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Ray » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:38 am

ddray wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:43 am
Ray wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:33 am

No of course not! The first third of his life formed the basis of his musical education, exposing and immersing himself in music of all the musical periods, the composers and repertoire for the various instruments while learning to play the guitar well and to a virtuoso level from his teacher Aaron Shearer, an excellent well respected pedagogue. These are not wasted years at all, they're the foundation of everything that comes afterward! ...
Yeah, which is what I've been saying is desirable. Come on, now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. If they play Asturias beautifully AND know sonata form, if they know sonata form but play Asturias badly, if they play Sor and Tedesco badly but know sonata form and Gregorian Chant...look, the point *again* is that if you immerse yourself *only* in music written expressly for cg, you are going to be musically deprived and impoverished, period, end of. Remember that the topic of this tangent was "transcriptions or no transcriptions?" In my view, a repertoire minus transcriptions of truly great music by Bach and others is going to be massively poorer and of interest almost exclusively to the guitar fraternity. Now I'm finished with this particular hair-splitting contest.
That's not true, as I've been saying there's a lot of great music written specifically for the guitar and guitar plus others and I guarantee a guitarist who chooses to play this music exclusively will not be impoverished at all, case in point somebody like David Starobin. Now his repertoire is mostly new music and that may not appeal to everyone not even guitarists that mostly like mainstream rep but Starobin has an audience and a market that appreciates what he does. He has concerts and many recordings, what more should he want out of life? I'm envious of his career.

Now if you don't like the works written originally for guitar only and guitar plus others repertoire then so be it, no problem - find guitarists that play the repertoire with transcriptions of Bach and other music that you like - there's room for all kinds of guitarists and repertoire, whether you feel it's impoverished or poorer or not, that your opinion, no problem.

As far as audiences go it doesn't really matter if a guitar only fraternity crowd goes to a performer based on what they're playing for that specific concert or recording. Or if a guitar fraternity crowd will usually be the only kind of people that will show for a specific artist. The only thing that matters is that the audience however big or small or in between appreciates what you're doing. That's the lesson I've personally learned from playing concerts myself. Not everybody can be a John Williams or Julian Bream, in fact today these kinds of players with huge number of recordings and concerts year after year simply do not exist anymore, the pie for classical guitar and other classical musicians is very small. There's zero money in recordings and streaming. The only thing you can do is keep playing the music you love and try to build an audience that appreciates what you're doing. Sometimes that audience will be small or you may be fortunate and be an artist that attracts a large amount of people but whatever it is you have to stay true to yourself and the music that fits you the best.

You know I'm a big fan of the late Allan Holdsworth (fusion-jazz-rock electric player) and I used to go see him all the time during my college years and it was usually the guitar only crowd that came to see him play because unfortunately nobody else really appreciated what he was doing. Well I say it's their loss because his music was and still is some of the most brilliant and searingly powerful stuff ever created and performed. I don't think he minded that it was a relatively small number of people who bought his albums and came to see him play, mostly in small to medium size performance venues. He just loved playing his music and being true to himself and his vision. That's all that really matters, honestly.

Do you play yourself? Or just a listener appreciator? What's your level of playing? If you don't want to answer no problem but it'll give me a better picture of who you are. As for myself I've been playing for over 50 years and I'm an advanced player, I've played the Ginastera Sonata, the Britten Nocturnal, Rodrigo Invocation and Dance, Bach-Lute/Violin/Cello works etc.. you name it I've probably played it. Ok well that's enough about me let's hear about you. :D

I'm done hair-splitting and arguing too - it's been a stressful last few days posting on this thread -

ddray
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by ddray » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:30 am

Ray wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:38 am
...
Do you play yourself? Or just a listener appreciator? What's your level of playing? If you don't want to answer no problem but it'll give me a better picture of who you are. As for myself I've been playing for over 50 years and I'm an advanced player, I've played the Ginastera Sonata, the Britten Nocturnal, Rodrigo Invocation and Dance, Bach-Lute/Violin/Cello works etc.. you name it I've probably played it. Ok well that's enough about me let's hear about you. :D
...
Well I'm glad to hear of your accomplishments with the guitar, and I'm sorry to sound disrespectful. That's a little too easy to do on a forum like this. I'm just an intermediate guitar player; I just took it up about 3 years ago. Long before that though I studied piano for years and I would say I'm an advanced player on that instrument, and while I'm not a professional musician or virtuoso, I do have quite a bit of public playing experience. A few months ago I started studying the cello (which I recommend to those not afraid of having too many irons in the fire...what a beautiful instrument). I think one of the problems with my "fitting in" on this forum is that my perspective is a little different. I love the guitar and think it's a beautiful instrument; but it's an interest of mine, not my passion or life's blood. I find music in general to be more interesting than narrowly focusing on the rep of one single instrument. That no doubt colors my attitude toward the guitar repertoire.

2lost2find
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by 2lost2find » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:59 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:57 am

Nah... I wanted 2lost2find to tell me what he means.

I think he's BS-ing. Or at least telling a stretcher.
What I mean is she had a thing going with a publishing house under which she had her choral works published at the rate of two per year if I remember correctly, with the target audience being high school and university choirs. Her work did not knock my socks off but it was decent and she'd found a way to make a little money with her original compositions. By contrast, the actual composition professor had to turn to music department faculty if he wanted something performed or recorded; nobody else would touch it. Why would it be BS? People do still get publishing deals.
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:54 am

Your "bluntness" is the harbinger of your shallowness, no surprises there, but I am really shocked by your naivete. Different cultures have different conceptions of musical elements, i.e. how to control tension and resolution, what constitutes "harmony", beat, etc etc etc. This is not a concept that is even up for debate. Any educated musician knows this. Practically any educated layman knows this, in fact, practically anyone who has ever been more than a few hours travel from where they were born intuitively knows that "Folks just do things differently over there..."

Do you really have a Bachelors degree in music composition?
Yes I do, and of course I am aware of all those things... I just don't care about them. Knowing the cultural context does not alter my enjoyment of a piece in any way. And I certainly am not thinking in those terms when I write. My composition prof was constantly going on about the things he was trying to evoke with this and that and I was always like dude... seriously? I'm just trying to write something I would want to hear.

I'll tell you something about my college experience. I was 25 when I started and had been playing rock guitar professionally for several years. I was all ready to leave that world behind. I was gonna go all the way... get a doctorate! Maybe teach college. I had fun during those four years, learned some new tools, and came away with a 4.0 GPA. I also realized right towards the end that if I spent the rest of my life in a collegiate environment I was likely to kill somebody. So there I stood in 2003 with my acceptance to graduate school in one hand and a very lucrative touring offer in the other. I went back out on the road.
ddray wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:30 am
I find music in general to be more interesting than narrowly focusing on the rep of one single instrument.
Of course. One should listen to as much as possible. I''ve been digging into the music of Salieri lately (speaking of grossly undervalued composers)... not a guitar work to be found. I just find that in almost all cases music sounds better on the instrument for which it was written, and there's more great music for our instrument than you can play in ten lifetimes.

User avatar
Adrian Allan
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:09 pm

Ray wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:27 am
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:18 am
Adrian Allan wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:02 pm
Ok - I accept that

All I am asking for is more of the music that is commissioned for festivals and competitions etc etc,to be written with more a tonal mindset.

It just so happens that nearly every commission that comes up (Bream commissions as well), divides opinion and alienates a lot of people. I don't think that's good - it's not a healthy situation.

and people won't suddenly be welcoming to this style of music, as the other side of the camp accuses those like me of being narrow minded. These tired old debates always happen. And before you say it - if it wasn't me moaning, somebody else would be.

So there should be an insistence of festival composers doing something that reaches out and appeals to us all for once it a while. My example - Tres Piezas Espanolas by Rodrigo - something for all of us (the intellectuals and the general lovers of classical music)
Hi Adrian, several of your past posts display a similar sentiment. As others have said, "Its OK to not like something." However, if you want to actually change something, thats another matter.

It is very easy to criticize, denigrate, belittle, destroy, and worse. But what will you replace it with? That is the challenge.

You seem to have a pretty clear idea of what you want to hear. If I may offer some input, I think there are a few possibilities. One can:
  • Write your own pieces.
  • Record them.
  • Commission your own pieces from established composers.
  • Find someone to perform them. (I've done it myself. Lots of people enjoy playing premieres!)
  • Gather your own audience together. (Its not that difficult...we all do it to some extent)
  • Start your own festival. Find some like-minded people to help. Financial backing might be difficult, but all these festivals had to begin somewhere!
All of these are proactive. They are also a lot of work. But I think the end result has the potential to actually add some value to all of our lives, something that railing on about the state of things on internet forums never does.

Look, every piece of music was written to fill a need. They didn't just appear at random. You have a clearly articulated need for a different type of music...go out and create it!

cheers!



dirck
Dirck where have you been? Love this inspiring and practical post of yours! :D

To Adrian's credit he is writing this here book (pic below)- but as you so clearly said with much wisdom - if you really want to change something you have to be proactive. And there's no guarantee that doing all that you wrote will produce what Adrian is looking for but if he's really passionate about it then it's worth pursuing, however long that may take.

Thanks a lot!
:merci:


guitar compose book21.jpg
Thanks, Ray, the book is almost finished!

I will open a thread about this soon, but here is my current state of play

1.Currently 180 pages long and 22,000 words of text (yes, I should get out more often)

2.The book, although "finished", will be given constant updates as and when people want to know more information - I have likened it to Dorico, or a product that is potentially so enormous, it will expand as people ask for more features.

3.In light of above, I have invited readers to give me their email addresses and any updates to the book will be provided free of charge
I will open a Facebook page based on the book - people can ask questions about how to compose for the guitar there. I also want people on this forum to join the page, so you can also throw in your ideas to aspiring composers

4.The book has 15 pages of appendices of common chord voicings and arpeggio patterns - in all keys, in the Major, minor and dom7 form. I could not possibly do every chord voicing available on the guitar, as those books can run to 1,000 pages (there are jazz books like that)

5.All the musical examples will be accompanied by sound recordings on my Soundcloud page, ordered by the chapters


anyway, that is enough for now - I am working on the index

So yes - this is my contribution to getting more works written for this great instrument
D'Ammassa Spruce/Spruce Double Top

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:05 pm

2lost2find wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:59 pm
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:54 am
...
Do you really have a Bachelors degree in music composition?
Yes I do, and of course I am aware of all those things... I just don't care about them. Knowing the cultural context does not alter my enjoyment of a piece in any way. And I certainly am not thinking in those terms when I write. My composition prof was constantly going on about the things he was trying to evoke with this and that and I was always like dude... seriously? I'm just trying to write something I would want to hear.

I'll tell you something about my college experience. I was 25 when I started and had been playing rock guitar professionally for several years. I was all ready to leave that world behind. I was gonna go all the way... get a doctorate! Maybe teach college. I had fun during those four years, learned some new tools, and came away with a 4.0 GPA. I also realized right towards the end that if I spent the rest of my life in a collegiate environment I was likely to kill somebody. So there I stood in 2003 with my acceptance to graduate school in one hand and a very lucrative touring offer in the other. I went back out on the road.
Nothing screams "Credibility" quite like an anonymous internet commenter.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:41 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
2lost2find wrote:
Dirck Nagy wrote:Do you really have a Bachelors degree in music composition?
Yes I do ...
Nothing screams "Credibility" quite like an anonymous internet commenter.
Dirck, I don't see why you wouldn't take 2hand at his word (anonymity or not); if you ask the correct questions about his bachelor's it should be possible to frame his position in a clearer context. Assuming that he's willing to answer of course - but he seems forthright enough to do so.

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:43 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:41 pm
Dirck Nagy wrote:
2lost2find wrote:
Yes I do ...
Nothing screams "Credibility" quite like an anonymous internet commenter.
Dirck, I don't see why you wouldn't take 2hand at his word (anonymity or not);..
Because of the way he positions himself as an authority figure.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:11 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:43 pm
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:41 pm
Dirck Nagy wrote: Nothing screams "Credibility" quite like an anonymous internet commenter.
Dirck, I don't see why you wouldn't take 2hand at his word (anonymity or not); ...
Because of the way he positions himself as an authority figure.
I get that - but a bachelor's of itself, as anonymous as the poster, tells us nothing and suggests no authority. He's just relating his experience at school. All I'm suggesting is that asking who the tutors were, the location, maybe hearing some of the compositional results and so on would be more insightful.

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:39 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:11 pm
Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:43 pm
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:41 pm

Dirck, I don't see why you wouldn't take 2hand at his word (anonymity or not); ...
Because of the way he positions himself as an authority figure.
I get that - but a bachelor's of itself, as anonymous as the poster, tells us nothing and suggests no authority. He's just relating his experience at school. All I'm suggesting is that asking who the tutors were, the location, maybe hearing some of the compositional results and so on would be more insightful.
Oh, I know that, Mark... everyone can have an opinion, of course. But some folks like to stir the pot until it spills all the soup onto the ground. Sarcastic, condescending posturing by anonymous pundits doesn't do any good; it actually causes a lot of harm, supressing legitimate exchange and serious questions from people who expect friendly, helpful, accurate advice.

I doubt if he'll supply us with the info. Not that it matters...the internet isnt really anonymous, after all. I wonder if he realizes that?

crazyrach97
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by crazyrach97 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:09 pm

Ok, I've kind of been absent from this forum in general for the past couple of weeks, and I'm only posting now because I intercepted a fairly heated post before he had a chance to put it up. Convinced him to take some cool-off time before responding. Seriously though, Dirck... what's your problem? He's passionate and maybe a little opinionated, but I'm not seeing sarcastic or condescending anywhere. You, on the other hand, are being pretty unpleasant. Sorry, but you are. Not everybody agrees with you either, but no one is calling you a liar.
Last edited by crazyrach97 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

2lost2find
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Re: Weiss is Purplexed:-)

Post by 2lost2find » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:45 pm

She calls me out for being heated, then calls somebody a jerk... :lol:

Nevertheless, you're getting a little off the rails, man. Nobody seems to be taking offence to my comments but you. In regard to the questions posed, I do like maintaining a certain anonymity online (I'm the only person I know who is not on FB) but I will say that I graduated from the University of Minnesota class of 2003. I did not study guitar there, and filled my private lesson requirement with composition lessons and performance requirement with men's choir. I could have played guitar in the jazz band, but I calculated (correctly) that the choir would be less of a demand on my time. I played a lute in the musicum practicum, which was an early music ensemble, to fill a requirement for a musicology class I took second year. I didn't buy a lute; the school had a collection of instruments for the purpose of that ensemble.

Where precisely have I been sarcastic or condescending? The point at which you got irate was where I declared myself uninterested in cultural contexts, and I can't see anything particularly condescending about that.

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